Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
Hello,
probably most of you have heard about Operations Halberd and Harpoon. I would like to ask about involvement of Regia Aeronautica in aerial attacks on both convoys.
What I'm looking for is the Italian point of view from both battles. I know how British side described Halberd and Harpoon but since we all know how biased such relations could be I would like to know also what Italians are claiming and compare it with the British version. I'm especially interested in the losses sustained by Regia Aeronautica during Operation Harpoon. Any help would be appreciated!
Regards,
Andrzej
PS. I was able to find something from Italian side for Halberd - http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_santoro.htm - but still no luck with Operation Harpoon.
probably most of you have heard about Operations Halberd and Harpoon. I would like to ask about involvement of Regia Aeronautica in aerial attacks on both convoys.
What I'm looking for is the Italian point of view from both battles. I know how British side described Halberd and Harpoon but since we all know how biased such relations could be I would like to know also what Italians are claiming and compare it with the British version. I'm especially interested in the losses sustained by Regia Aeronautica during Operation Harpoon. Any help would be appreciated!
Regards,
Andrzej
PS. I was able to find something from Italian side for Halberd - http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_santoro.htm - but still no luck with Operation Harpoon.
- Davide Pastore
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Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
For Halberd, the official Italian claim (Bulletin number 484) is as follow:crolick wrote:what Italians are claiming
- - two heavy cruisers and one light cruiser sunk
- - one battleship and one destroyer hit
- - one large and six smaller unidentified ships hit
- - four cargo ships sunk
For Harpoon + Vigorous, the first official Italian claim (Bulletin number 748, 16 June 1942) is as follow:
- during the gunfire action with 7ª Divisione ("Battle of Pantelleria" to Italians):
- - a cruiser "exploded"
- - two destroyers heavily hit by gunfire
- - a cruiser and a destroyer damaged by torpedoes
- - another crippled destroyer sunk later by gunfire
- during aerial attacks against Harpoon:
- - four cargo ships sunk
- - one oiler put on fire
- during aerial attacks against Vigorous:
- - one destroyer sunk
- - six unidentified ships hit
Regarding Vigorous, Bulletin number 749, 17 June 1942, precised losses at:
- due to Germans:
- - one cruiser sunk by submarine
- - four cruisers or destroyers sunk by aircraft
- - "many" cargo ships sunk by aircraft
- due to Italians:
- - one destroyer sunk
- - five cruisers heavily hit
- - four cargo ships heavily hit
As per 19 June 1942 the total body count [Agenzia Stefani] was:
- Harpoon:
- - sunk: three cruisers, two destroyers, nine cargo ships
- - damaged: one battleship, one carrier, three cruisers, four destroyers
- Vigorous:
- - sunk: six cruisers or destroyers, six cargo ships
- - damaged: twelve warships, eighteen cargo ships
According to Arena's official history, R.A. lost 28 aircrafts, however only 10 of them are detailed in the text so it is possible some or all of the other 18 were not shot down but written off due to damage:crolick wrote:I'm especially interested in the losses sustained by Regia Aeronautica during Operation Harpoon
14 June 1942
1x S.79 (131° or 132° Gr. A.S.)
1x Ju 87 (102° Gr. B. a T.)
4x Ro.43 (onboard ships)
15 June 1942
2x S.84 (4° Gr. B.T.)
1x Ju 87 (102° Gr. B. a T.)
1x S.79 (132° Gr. A.S.)
Sources are the official navy and air force histories (Fioravanzo and Arena)
Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
Thank you very much Davide.
CM
CM
Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
Dear Davide,
thank you for your quite detailed answer!
Those claims looks like 'Grossi style' (9 cargo ships sunk in Harpoon, while there were only 6 of them! ). Do you know if it was common in RA or it was just this time when airman greatly exaggerated their achievements?!
As for the losses - I have 24 Italian planes and 3 German ones lost on 14/15 VI so I guess my numbers are quite accurate! Could you please tell me on which ships 4 Ro.43 planes were lost?!
One more question:
In my notes I have S.84 and SM.79 assigned to different Stormos, Gruppos or Squadriglias. Is it possible to 'match' Squadriglias to individual Gruppos and Gruppos to Stormos?! For example I have 256ª Squadriglia assigned to 108° Gruppo from 36° Stormo while there is simultaneously 253ª Squadriglia of 104° Gruppo with unknown Stormo or 259ª Squadriglia with no assignment at all. Hence I would love to know if anyone have OdB of RA or something like that which could help me to solve this out.
Regards,
Andrzej
thank you for your quite detailed answer!
Those claims looks like 'Grossi style' (9 cargo ships sunk in Harpoon, while there were only 6 of them! ). Do you know if it was common in RA or it was just this time when airman greatly exaggerated their achievements?!
As for the losses - I have 24 Italian planes and 3 German ones lost on 14/15 VI so I guess my numbers are quite accurate! Could you please tell me on which ships 4 Ro.43 planes were lost?!
One more question:
In my notes I have S.84 and SM.79 assigned to different Stormos, Gruppos or Squadriglias. Is it possible to 'match' Squadriglias to individual Gruppos and Gruppos to Stormos?! For example I have 256ª Squadriglia assigned to 108° Gruppo from 36° Stormo while there is simultaneously 253ª Squadriglia of 104° Gruppo with unknown Stormo or 259ª Squadriglia with no assignment at all. Hence I would love to know if anyone have OdB of RA or something like that which could help me to solve this out.
Regards,
Andrzej
- Davide Pastore
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Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
The second. From inside an aircraft cockpit it is quite difficult to assess what is happening outside, particularly if someone is actively trying to shoot down you.crolick wrote:Do you know if it was common in RA or it was just this time when airman greatly exaggerated their achievements?!
BTW I don't consider such claim as particularly exaggerated.
Confront them with Japanese pilots' claims in late war... or even with the post action report of the USAF B-24 pilots who, during the very Harpoon battle, claimed 23 (twenty-three) bomb hits upon Littorio alone (the correct number is: one or 4% of claims).
one onboard Littorio, hit by splinters from bomb above and later jettisoned in seacrolick wrote:Could you please tell me on which ships 4 Ro.43 planes were lost?!
one onboard Garibaldi, lost during launch (malfunction)
two onboard Trento, sunk
- 36° St. A.S.crolick wrote:Is it possible to 'match' Squadriglias to individual Gruppos and Gruppos to Stormos?!
- - 108° Gr. A.S.
- - - 256ª, 257ª Sq. B.T. (SM.84)
- - 109° Gr. A.S.
- - - 258ª, 259ª Sq. A.S. (SM.84)
- 46° St. A.S.
- - 104° Gr. A.S.
- - - 252ª, 253ª Sq. A.S. (SM.79)
- - 105° Gr. A.S.
- - - 254ª, 255ª Sq. A.S. (SM.79)
Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
Thank you!Davide Pastore wrote:one onboard Littorio, hit by splinters from bomb above and later jettisoned in sea
one onboard Garibaldi, lost during launch (malfunction)
two onboard Trento, sunk
Splendid! I have 'a bit' longer list of Squadriglias of which I'm looking for So if it is possible I would like to know the same as above for:Davide Pastore wrote:- 36° St. A.S.
- - 108° Gr. A.S.
- - - 256ª, 257ª Sq. B.T. (SM.84)
- - 109° Gr. A.S.
- - - 258ª, 259ª Sq. A.S. (SM.84)
- 46° St. A.S.
- - 104° Gr. A.S.
- - - 252ª, 253ª Sq. A.S. (SM.79)
- - 105° Gr. A.S.
- - - 254ª, 255ª Sq. A.S. (SM.79)
62ª Squadriglia [Z.1007bis]
209ª Squadriglia [Ju.87]
239ª Squadriglia [Ju.87]
278ª Squadriglia
280ª Squadriglia
281ª Squadriglia
282ª Squadriglia
283ª Squadriglia
150ª Squadriglia
152ª Squadriglia
351ª Squadriglia
354ª Squadriglia
355ª Squadriglia
360ª Squadriglia
370ª Squadriglia
378ª Squadriglia
the latter are CR.42, MC.200 and Re.2001 units.
Aha - what is A.S. or B.T.?
BTW. Is there any Italian source which describes the Harpoon battle in details (I mean the aerial part)? I have only British account for the battle and it does not necessary may be correct. Davide maybe in your sources there are given numbers and units for planes which were attacking in the following waves?!
Best regards,
Andrzej
- Davide Pastore
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Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
- 5° St. Tuff.
- - 101° Gr. Tuff.
- - - 208ª, 238ª Sq. Tuff. (CR.42/b.a.)
- - 102° Gr. Tuff.
- - - 209ª, 239ª Sq. Tuff. (Ju 87R)
- 9° St. B.T.
- - 29° Gr. B.T.
- - - 62ª, 63ª Sq. B.T. (Cant.Z.1007bis)
- - 33° Gr. B.T.
- - - 59ª, 60ª Sq. B.T. (Cant.Z.1007bis)
- 51° St. C.T.
- - 20° Gr. C.T.
- - - 151ª, 352ª, 353ª Sq. C.T. (C.202)
- - 155° Gr. C.T.
- - - 351ª, 360ª, 378ª Sq. C.T. (C.202)
- Gruppi Autonomi (independent)
- - 2° Gr. Aut. C.T.
- - - 150ª, 152ª, 358ª Sq. C.T. (Re.2001)
- - 24° Gr. Aut. C.T.
- - - 354ª, 355ª, 370ª Sq. C.T. (G.50bis & CR.42)
- - 130° Gr. Aut. A.S.
- - - 280ª, 283ª Sq. A.S. (SM.79)
- - 132° Gr. Aut. A.S.
- - - 278ª, 281ª Sq. A.S. (SM.79)
A.S. - AeroSiluranti (Torpedo bombers)
Ass. - Assalto (Ground attack, fighter-bombers)
B.G.R. - Bombardamento a Grande Raggio (Long-range bombers)
B.T. - Bombardamento Terrestre (Land bombers)
C. - Complementare ("subsidiary" i.e., combat training)
Comb. - Combattimento ("fighting" i.e., unclear combat role)
C.T. - Caccia Terrestre (Land fighters)
I. - Intercettori (Interceptors, usually night fighters)
O.A. - Osservazione Aerea (Observation)
R.M. - Ricognizione Marittima (Sea reconnaissance)
R.S.T. - Ricognizione Strategica Terrestre (Land strategic reconnaissance)
Socc. - Soccorso (Rescue)
T. - Trasporto (Transport)
Tuff. - Tuffatori (Dive bombers) [early war: B. a T. - Bombardamento a Tuffo]
- - 101° Gr. Tuff.
- - - 208ª, 238ª Sq. Tuff. (CR.42/b.a.)
- - 102° Gr. Tuff.
- - - 209ª, 239ª Sq. Tuff. (Ju 87R)
- 9° St. B.T.
- - 29° Gr. B.T.
- - - 62ª, 63ª Sq. B.T. (Cant.Z.1007bis)
- - 33° Gr. B.T.
- - - 59ª, 60ª Sq. B.T. (Cant.Z.1007bis)
- 51° St. C.T.
- - 20° Gr. C.T.
- - - 151ª, 352ª, 353ª Sq. C.T. (C.202)
- - 155° Gr. C.T.
- - - 351ª, 360ª, 378ª Sq. C.T. (C.202)
- Gruppi Autonomi (independent)
- - 2° Gr. Aut. C.T.
- - - 150ª, 152ª, 358ª Sq. C.T. (Re.2001)
- - 24° Gr. Aut. C.T.
- - - 354ª, 355ª, 370ª Sq. C.T. (G.50bis & CR.42)
- - 130° Gr. Aut. A.S.
- - - 280ª, 283ª Sq. A.S. (SM.79)
- - 132° Gr. Aut. A.S.
- - - 278ª, 281ª Sq. A.S. (SM.79)
Independent [A.S.], disbanded 15 January 1942crolick wrote:282ª Squadriglia
A.P.C. - Aviazione Presidio Coloniale Colonial Policecrolick wrote:Aha - what is A.S. or B.T.?
A.S. - AeroSiluranti (Torpedo bombers)
Ass. - Assalto (Ground attack, fighter-bombers)
B.G.R. - Bombardamento a Grande Raggio (Long-range bombers)
B.T. - Bombardamento Terrestre (Land bombers)
C. - Complementare ("subsidiary" i.e., combat training)
Comb. - Combattimento ("fighting" i.e., unclear combat role)
C.T. - Caccia Terrestre (Land fighters)
I. - Intercettori (Interceptors, usually night fighters)
O.A. - Osservazione Aerea (Observation)
R.M. - Ricognizione Marittima (Sea reconnaissance)
R.S.T. - Ricognizione Strategica Terrestre (Land strategic reconnaissance)
Socc. - Soccorso (Rescue)
T. - Trasporto (Transport)
Tuff. - Tuffatori (Dive bombers) [early war: B. a T. - Bombardamento a Tuffo]
I have some general works about the war in the Mediterranean, but nothing dedicated to the battle alone. The most detailed coverage of the aerial battle is Arena's official history, but it is both costly and poorly written so I don't recommend it to you.crolick wrote:BTW. Is there any Italian source which describes the Harpoon battle in details (I mean the aerial part)?
Work in progress...crolick wrote:Davide maybe in your sources there are given numbers and units for planes which were attacking in the following waves?!
Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
WoW - great stuff!!Davide Pastore wrote:- 5° St. Tuff.
- - 101° Gr. Tuff.
- - - 208ª, 238ª Sq. Tuff. (CR.42/b.a.)
- - 102° Gr. Tuff.
- - - 209ª, 239ª Sq. Tuff. (Ju 87R)
OK so for the beginningDavide Pastore wrote:Work in progress...
Operation Halberd:
1st wave: [13.05]
bombers: 9 S.84 [2 from 256ª Sq., 3 from 257ª Sq., 1 from 258ª Sq., 3 from 282ª Sq.], 3 planes lost
fighters: 8 CR.42 [from 24° Gr., Sq. unknown ]
2nd wave: [13.22]
bombers: 5 S.84 [2 from 258ª Sq., 3 from 259ª Sq.], 3 planes lost
3rd wave: [13.55]
bombers: 11 SM.79 [2 from 278ª Sq., 4 from 280ª Sq., 5 from 283ª Sq.], 1 plane lost
fighters: 12 CR.42 [from 24° Gr., Sq. unknown ], 1 plane lost
4th wave: [21.10]
bombers: 2 S.84 [from 278ª Sq.], Imperial Star damaged
Is above data correct?! Any comments and corrections would be greatly appreciated!
Andrzej
- Davide Pastore
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Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
36° St. A.S. took off at 12:15 from Decimomannu with 11 S.84, 6 lost, Nelson hit and damagedcrolick wrote:1st wave: [13.05]
bombers: 9 S.84 [2 from 256ª Sq., 3 from 257ª Sq., 1 from 258ª Sq., 3 from 282ª Sq.], 3 planes lost
2nd wave: [13.22]
bombers: 5 S.84 [2 from 258ª Sq., 3 from 259ª Sq.], 3 planes lost
130° Gr. A.S. (280ª & 283ª Sq. A.S.) plus a few aircrafts from Sicily transferred the day before (from 278ª & 282ª Sq. A.S.) took off from Elmas at 11:50 with 14 S.79, 1 lostcrolick wrote:3rd wave: [13.55]
bombers: 11 SM.79 [2 from 278ª Sq., 4 from 280ª Sq., 5 from 283ª Sq.], 1 plane lost
Total of 20 fighters (1 lost) escorting the 25 torpedo bombers above
According to Arena:crolick wrote:4th wave: [21.10]
bombers: 2 S.84 [from 278ª Sq.], Imperial Star damaged
- 102° Gr. Tuff. took off at 17:00 from Sicily with 9 Ju 87R (plus 15 C.200 from 10° Gr. C.T.), enemy not found, 10 fighters lost (bad fuel planning!)
- afternoon/evening: 130° Gr. A.S. took off at ? from Elmas with 5 S.79, no losses, no hit
- subsequent morning: 278ª Sq. A.S. from Pantelleria with ? S.79, no losses, Imperial Star hit and sunk
Did I told you Arena is a poor researcher?
According to Fioravanzo:
- 102° Gr. Tuff., as per Arena but 18 fighters
- 130° Gr. A.S., as per Arena
- afternoon: Unknown unit (but possibly 278ª Sq. A.S.) took off at ? from Sicily with 2 S.79, no losses, Imperial Star hit and subsequently scuttled
- during the night: combat recon by bombers from Sicily, only 2 find enemy, no losses, no hit
- following afternoon: unknown unit from Sardegna with at least 3 aircrafts attacks at 17:30, no losses, no hit
Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
Right you are! Off course 3 planes from 282ª Sq. were SM.79 and not S.84 but they were somehow 'lost' during the flight and joined S.84s.Davide Pastore wrote:36° St. A.S. took off at 12:15 from Decimomannu with 11 S.84, 6 lost, Nelson hit and damaged
130° Gr. A.S. (280ª & 283ª Sq. A.S.) plus a few aircrafts from Sicily transferred the day before (from 278ª & 282ª Sq. A.S.) took off from Elmas at 11:50 with 14 S.79, 1 lost
Nelson was hit during the 2nd wave probably by col. Seidl 36°Stormo CO.
I presume that there are no chances to trace which Sq. were involved?! I have only info that fighters might be from 370ª Sq. and 354ª Sq. but I do not how many of them were from each Sq. and if this info is correct!Davide Pastore wrote:Total of 20 fighters (1 lost) escorting the 25 torpedo bombers above
Thanks! Interesting detailesDavide Pastore wrote:According to Fioravanzo:
- 102° Gr. Tuff., as per Arena but 18 fighters
- 130° Gr. A.S., as per Arena
- afternoon: Unknown unit (but possibly 278ª Sq. A.S.) took off at ? from Sicily with 2 S.79, no losses, Imperial Star hit and subsequently scuttled
- during the night: combat recon by bombers from Sicily, only 2 find enemy, no losses, no hit
- following afternoon: unknown unit from Sardegna with at least 3 aircrafts attacks at 17:30, no losses, no hit
- Davide Pastore
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Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
According to Arena, by Maggiore Arduino Buri (CO 108° Gr. A.S.)crolick wrote:Nelson was hit during the 2nd wave probably by col. Seidl 36°Stormo CO
None. Squadriglie being so weak, they rarely operated as separate units but where freely mixed inside Gruppi into ad hoc flying formations.crolick wrote:I presume that there are no chances to trace which Sq. were involved?!
Re: Regia Aeronautica in Operations Halberd & Harpoon
Well this is kind of a problem. According to my notes Buri unsuccessfully attacked Rodney but there is also 2nd version of the story in which:Davide Pastore wrote:According to Arena, by Maggiore Arduino Buri (CO 108° Gr. A.S.)crolick wrote:Nelson was hit during the 2nd wave probably by col. Seidl 36°Stormo CO
1st wave was consisting of 14 SM.79 and 12 CR.42 [hence = 3rd wave from the previous version]
2nd wave of 9 S.84 and 8 CR.42 (in which magg. Buri hit Nelson) [hence = 1st wave from the previous version]
3rd wave of 5 S.84 [hence = 2nd wave from the previous version]
As far as I know there is no definitive prove which could confirm or deny any of the versions though the first one seems to be more detailed and reliable