indian armoured regiments in NA
indian armoured regiments in NA
Reading about the North African campaign from time to time there appear some indian armoured car (?) regiments fighting alongside 8th Army.
the CIH: central Indian Horse: during crusader.
the Guides: Just before 18th indian brigade demise at deir shein.
the 13th lancers: during the retreat to Matruth...
Do you know the periods they were involved in the fighting ?? How were they organissed and wich equippement did they use.
Many thanks
Eduard
the CIH: central Indian Horse: during crusader.
the Guides: Just before 18th indian brigade demise at deir shein.
the 13th lancers: during the retreat to Matruth...
Do you know the periods they were involved in the fighting ?? How were they organissed and wich equippement did they use.
Many thanks
Eduard
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
Eduard.
The C.I.H. were technically a cavalry Regiment, as the name would suggest. They spent some time in NA in 1940 with the 4th Ind Inf Div.Only to be withdrawn later in that year. They re-appear in the Spring of 1941.
You ask about "Crusader". At that time, they were organised into 3 Squadrons ( A,B &C ) Two with carriers (about 20 in each) 4 of which had 3" mortars. Not sure of carrier armament in others. (Probably mix of Bren & Boyes). The third Sqd was of motorised Infantry in lorries.
Later in '42 they have 1 Sqd/Bty of 2 Pdr portees & 2 Sqd/Co Mot Inf in either carriers or lorries.
The C.I.H. were technically a cavalry Regiment, as the name would suggest. They spent some time in NA in 1940 with the 4th Ind Inf Div.Only to be withdrawn later in that year. They re-appear in the Spring of 1941.
You ask about "Crusader". At that time, they were organised into 3 Squadrons ( A,B &C ) Two with carriers (about 20 in each) 4 of which had 3" mortars. Not sure of carrier armament in others. (Probably mix of Bren & Boyes). The third Sqd was of motorised Infantry in lorries.
Later in '42 they have 1 Sqd/Bty of 2 Pdr portees & 2 Sqd/Co Mot Inf in either carriers or lorries.
Last edited by David W on 16 Jun 2009, 17:35, edited 1 time in total.
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
The Guides were an Armoured car Battalion, part of the 10th Indian Inf Div.
I haven't got a lot on them. I can first place them in NA early June '42.
Later (Alamein?) they are equipped with 50 or so Humber MKIII.
I too would like to know more.
I haven't got a lot on them. I can first place them in NA early June '42.
Later (Alamein?) they are equipped with 50 or so Humber MKIII.
I too would like to know more.
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
I'm going to pass on the 13th Lancers, because I don't have anything reliable to share. I'm sure that someone else will come up with "the goods".
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
Thanks David,
The Guides and 13th Lancers appear briefly in my known narratives:
The Guides just appearing before Deir Shein (18th indan Brigade improvised box) on 1st July 1943 informing that the german tanks are approaching and then dissapear of the narrative. From de New Zealand account of the battle.
The !3th Lancers, during the retreat from Cirenaica to Egypt on 23rd june(?) having many troubles to cross the minefields and scarpements in front of the opposition and in company of some columns of the hastily rebuilt 3rd Indian motorissed brigade. From "The tiger Kills".
Surprising the Guides with Humber A/C's meanwhile other more experienced units had to do with underarmed Marmon-Herringtons II or III.
Maybe they could be some IP carriers (indian pattern) that had some vague look of humbers (?)
As a guess I would imagine both inexperienced units leaving behind their mounts in order other more battle hardened units took them. And then going to reserve.
eduard
The Guides and 13th Lancers appear briefly in my known narratives:
The Guides just appearing before Deir Shein (18th indan Brigade improvised box) on 1st July 1943 informing that the german tanks are approaching and then dissapear of the narrative. From de New Zealand account of the battle.
The !3th Lancers, during the retreat from Cirenaica to Egypt on 23rd june(?) having many troubles to cross the minefields and scarpements in front of the opposition and in company of some columns of the hastily rebuilt 3rd Indian motorissed brigade. From "The tiger Kills".
Surprising the Guides with Humber A/C's meanwhile other more experienced units had to do with underarmed Marmon-Herringtons II or III.
Maybe they could be some IP carriers (indian pattern) that had some vague look of humbers (?)
As a guess I would imagine both inexperienced units leaving behind their mounts in order other more battle hardened units took them. And then going to reserve.
eduard
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
Re-reading the war diary of the 9th Lancers I found that after losing all its tanks the regiment on the 3rd of june meets an squadron of the 13th Lancers. But literally says: 13 Lancers (PAVO) when it should be (DCO)
Maybe it was 11th Lancers (pavo) from the overun 3rd indian motorissed brigade rebuilt....??
Enigmatic.
Eduard
Maybe it was 11th Lancers (pavo) from the overun 3rd indian motorissed brigade rebuilt....??
Enigmatic.
Eduard
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
Eduard,
Was 13th DCO Lancers not the armoured car regiment of 31st Indian armoured? From some various reading I think two squadrons were equipped with the Indian Army's reconditioned Chevvy-Crossley's before it went to the NWF, and then a third received some sort of armour (more Chevvy Crossley's or perhaps Indian pattern lights?) from the Scinde Horse on arrival in Iraq in '41. It took the CC's to Syria but according to one site they were gifted to Iran in 1942, ao presumably (and sensibly!) they were left behind when the regiment left for Egypt. As an AC equipped unit it was unlikely to adopt the 2 squads IP carrier + 1 AT squad format of the infantry Div Cav (?).... so what did they get in Egypt? M-H or just lots of IP carriers... Not much help but am very interested in these regiments rushed from Iraq in the summer crisis of 1942. Any more thoughts?
James
Was 13th DCO Lancers not the armoured car regiment of 31st Indian armoured? From some various reading I think two squadrons were equipped with the Indian Army's reconditioned Chevvy-Crossley's before it went to the NWF, and then a third received some sort of armour (more Chevvy Crossley's or perhaps Indian pattern lights?) from the Scinde Horse on arrival in Iraq in '41. It took the CC's to Syria but according to one site they were gifted to Iran in 1942, ao presumably (and sensibly!) they were left behind when the regiment left for Egypt. As an AC equipped unit it was unlikely to adopt the 2 squads IP carrier + 1 AT squad format of the infantry Div Cav (?).... so what did they get in Egypt? M-H or just lots of IP carriers... Not much help but am very interested in these regiments rushed from Iraq in the summer crisis of 1942. Any more thoughts?
James
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Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
I have the 13th DCO Lancers appearing as an Armoured Car unit with 10th Indian at Basra on 6 May 1941.
They actually had the armoured cars ('Indian type 1922 Rolls Royce Armored Cars') in Iraq. Whether they kept them or got something else later, I don't know. I would assume something else. 1922 Rolls Royces would have looked odd in the Western Desert by 1942.
They actually had the armoured cars ('Indian type 1922 Rolls Royce Armored Cars') in Iraq. Whether they kept them or got something else later, I don't know. I would assume something else. 1922 Rolls Royces would have looked odd in the Western Desert by 1942.
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
We are finally getting somewhere. Every little helps. Well done chaps!
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
By the way, are the Indian army units war diaries available somewhere?
My guess is that the indian units would be equipped with the abundant M-H armoured cars, or maybe just as truk borne infantry.
Although maybe the war diaries of the corps belonging to 8th army have the information needed?
My guess is that the indian units would be equipped with the abundant M-H armoured cars, or maybe just as truk borne infantry.
Although maybe the war diaries of the corps belonging to 8th army have the information needed?
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
Central India Horse WD is at least partially in Kew (169/3409 is the one covering CRUSADER)eduard wrote:By the way, are the Indian army units war diaries available somewhere?
My guess is that the indian units would be equipped with the abundant M-H armoured cars, or maybe just as truk borne infantry.
Although maybe the war diaries of the corps belonging to 8th army have the information needed?
A quick search can't find the others. I'll pull the CIH when I go next in a few weeks.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
I've just found an interesting picture of "the Guides": This photo was taken in April 1942 soon after the Guides cavalry arrived in Egypt.
In the backgroud there appears 2 carriers wheeled IP (indian pattern). And trucks.
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/a ... guides.htm
It would be very interesting to know how were they organized.
In the backgroud there appears 2 carriers wheeled IP (indian pattern). And trucks.
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/a ... guides.htm
It would be very interesting to know how were they organized.
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
The Guides Honnours for 2 WWII.
Bir hacheim
Minar Quim
Deir el Shein
At wikipedia appears another picture of an carrier IP.
THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH AFRICA 1942; An Indian Pattern Carrier Mk 2A named 'Dhar IV', 10 April 1942
Bir hacheim
Minar Quim
Deir el Shein
At wikipedia appears another picture of an carrier IP.
THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH AFRICA 1942; An Indian Pattern Carrier Mk 2A named 'Dhar IV', 10 April 1942
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
Hi DavidDavid W wrote:Eduard.
The C.I.H. were technically a cavalry Regiment, as the name would suggest. They spent some time in NA in 1940 with the 4th Ind Inf Div.Only to be withdrawn later in that year. They re-appear in the Spring of 1941.
You ask about "Crusader". At that time, they were organised into 3 Squadrons ( A,B &C ) Two with carriers (about 20 in each) 4 of which had 3" mortars. Not sure of carrier armament in others. (Probably mix of Bren & Boyes). The third Sqd was of motorised Infantry in lorries.
Later in '42 they have 1 Sqd/Bty of 2 Pdr portees & 2 Sqd/Co Mot Inf in either carriers or lorries.
They only had 21 carriers in CRUSADER, and only one carrier squadron.
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- WO169/3409
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The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: indian armoured regiments in NA
Oooh! Nice work.
I wonder if they ever got the second carrier squadron?
I wonder if they ever got the second carrier squadron?