Tobruk 1941

[Oasis]

Are there available maps of the italian art batteries around west Tobruk in 1941 ? (Brescia div.)
Toni

[Urmel]

This may help?

[Urmel]

Map is from NARA, and shows the Brescia sector just north of the Ras el Mdaur salient, which was held by 7 Bersaglieri.

[Urmel]

In a document by XXI C.A., dated 4 Nov 41, the following artillery is given for Brescia:

19 and 20 Fanteria - 1 bty 65mm each

1 Arti Celere - Nos. 3 and 4 battalion of 2 batteries 75mm each and one bty 20mm.

Reinforcements:
1 batl. 100mm
340 GaF with 1 batl. 77mm
858 GaF with 1 bty 149mm howitzers

Good luck finding those all on the map!

[Oasis]

JBond.... GREAT !!!!!
I should ask you if there are some more pictures also for the northernmost sectors of the front where my father's section was positioned.
How is it possible to request a complete picture to NARA? What is the address of NARA? I am really interested in everything regarding 1 Articelere and Brescia.
In any case you have given to me a very good document (!), I will explore it: is correct Brescia positions 11_41 is for november '41?
Thanks again!!

[Oasis]

Hi JBond
I just identified the positions and the map is complete also for northern sector, it really runs from Strongpoint S10 (south) to S45 (north) and in the middle the road to Derna !!!
Toni

[Urmel]

Ciao Toni

The easiest way is to go to NARA, which is what I did. Work sometimes takes me to Washington, so that is fortunate.

One more note. Brescia was heavily reinforced in artillery because of the deception plan, which was to launch a strong bombardment by Brescia and Trento in the west, while Bologna and Pavia and DAK attacked in the east.

The map is dated 1 Nov 41.

I hope this helps.

[Oasis]

thanks again...
ciao

[Urmel]

Anytime Tony. When I saw the map I remembered your request, and made sure I got the best picture possible of the sector.

[dor1941]

A most excellent find!!

Good luck finding those all on the map!

I cleaned up the map a bit and was surprised by the number of units identified. The square flags marked 16, 19 and 20 represent the HQ's for the 16º raggruppamento artiglieria and the 19º and 20º reggimenti fanteria, and the numbered triangular pennants depict the battalions of the infantry regiments. There are lettered strongpoints A through K and X and Y (closest to the Tobruk perimeter) and numbered strongpoints 1 through 21. Also note S, T and U positions on the left side of the map.
The groups of artillery symbols are easy to identify-the XLIV/16 represents the XLIV (44º) gruppo which had three batterie with 105/28 guns, the XXI/5 is the XXI (21º) gruppo of the 5º raggruppamento artiglieria which had three batterie of 149/35 guns, and the II(?)/1 is the II (2º) gruppo of the 1º reggimento artiglieria celere (articelere) with two batterie of 75/27 guns.

Thanks again for posting the document.

Was there a similar map for the sector of D. mot. Trento?

David R

[Oasis]

Anytime Tony. When I saw the map I remembered your request, and made sure I got the best picture possible of the sector.

Great, JBond !!
I hope to be of any help to you about Italy...
Toni

[Oasis]

A most excellent find!!

Good luck finding those all on the map!

I cleaned up the map a bit and was surprised by the number of units identified. The square flags marked 16, 19 and 20 represent the HQ's for the 16º raggruppamento artiglieria and the 19º and 20º reggimenti fanteria, and the numbered triangular pennants depict the battalions of the infantry regiments. There are lettered strongpoints A through K and X and Y (closest to the Tobruk perimeter) and numbered strongpoints 1 through 21. Also note S, T and U positions on the left side of the map.
The groups of artillery symbols are easy to identify-the XLIV/16 represents the XLIV (44º) gruppo which had three batteria with 105/28 guns, the XXI/5 is the XXI (21º) gruppo of the 5º raggruppamento artiglieria which had three batteria of 149/35 guns, and the II(?)/1 is the II (2º) gruppo of the 1º reggimento artiglieria celere (articelere) with two batteria of 75/27 guns.

Thanks again for posting the document.

Was there a similar map for the sector of D. mot. Trento?

David R

Good eyes, David: could we exchange each other all the numbers/letters found ?
We could use the naval battle rule: from A to L the columns and from 1 to 12 the lines... or, better, just only the columns (A-L) from top to low...

I identified the strongpoints on the right side: in the lower right is S10 an the last top right is S45; the dotted central line is the road from Tobruk to Derna (running between S19 and S21).
Toni

[Urmel]

858 GaF is at the bottom of the map, just north of the sector line with Trento. Can't find 340 GAF.

Anyone know which battalion was the 100mm battalion they were reinforced with?

[dor1941]

Good eyes, David: could we exchange each other all the numbers/letters found ?
We could use the naval battle rule: from A to L the columns and from 1 to 12 the lines... or, better, just only the columns (A-L) from top to low...

Sounds like fun-but I don't know what you mean by the 'naval battle rule'

I identified the strongpoints on the right side: in the lower right is S10 an the last top right is S45; the dotted central line is the road from Tobruk to Derna (running between S19 and S21).
Toni

Yes, I'm familiar with all those Tobruk perimeter posts on the "Red Line", but its the Italian strongpoints opposite that really interest us.

David R

[dor1941]

858 GaF is at the bottom of the map, just north of the sector line with Trento. Can't find 340 GAF.

D. Pastore (citing Storia della Artiglieria Italiana on the CS Forum) identifies four gruppi of 77/28 in the 340º raggruppamento artiglieria G.a.F., and we know that one of them-the CCCXLII (342º)-was in Bardia during Crusader. I would expect to find the remaining three-CCCXLIV (344º), CCCLI (351º) and CCCLII (352º)-lurking about the Tobruk perimeter, and occasionally shifting positions.
Pastore mentions other G.a.F. batteries in the 800 series, but if the 858ª batteria did have 149mm pieces (presumably obice da 149/12 or 149/13) then I would not expect it to be part of the 340º Rgrp. Art. G.a.F.-either an independent battery, or attached to some as yet unidentified G.a.F. gruppi. Montanari only identifies the 340º G.a.F. in the XXI corpo d'armata in this period.

Anyone know which battalion was the 100mm battalion they were reinforced with?

Pastore reported 1º reggimento artiglieria celere (of D. f. Brescia) had an attached and unidentified "?Gruppo da 100/17-8 x 100/17 [attached from ?] [later I/1º cel. ?]" from his source for Sept '41. Perhaps Toni can further enlighten us.

David R