British made gun, used by Germany, via Russia!

[nuyt]

Hmmm. problem, modification of the captured 76,2 Soviet Div guns 1936 into PAKs only happened after Feb 42....

[Urmel]

My guess is they were unmodified then.

[nuyt]

I understand there were two variants of Diana's. In this case you might be referring to the early version (the later was built in 42).
Maybe a different guns was used on the early Diana's?

[Urmel]

There were two variants of the Soviet 7.62cm, the FSV and the ZIS-3. It was one of those. If you look at the pictures in the DAK forum thread I linked, you will note these were guns without muzzle brake, which I think makes it the USV?

Also, the guns that were shipped in late 41 were labelled as field guns, not ATG, apparently. Here's a picture:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1595585

[nuyt]

Yep F22 and not ZIS3. So the Diana's had the 7,62 cm M1936 field gun and NOT the converted version: PAK 36 (r). It would have had the muzzle break.
But did our engineer examine the Diana in nov 42? He saw something
1) that made him think Vickers 3 inch and
2) on a Russian carriage
Was the Russian carriage still on the Sonderkraftwagen?

[Clive Mortimore]

There were two variants of the Soviet 7.62cm, the FSV and the ZIS-3. It was one of those. If you look at the pictures in the DAK forum thread I linked, you will note these were guns without muzzle brake, which I think makes it the USV?

Also, the guns that were shipped in late 41 were labelled as field guns, not ATG, apparently. Here's a picture:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1595585

The Germans captured and used 6 different types of 7.62 cm divisional guns.
76.2mm M02/06, 7.62 cm FK 290/1(r)
76.2mm M02/30 (with two barrel lengths) 7.62 cm FK 295/1(r) and 7.62 cm FK 295/2(r)
76.2mm M33, (limited numbers built compared to other Soviet guns) 7,62cm FK 298(r)
76.2mm M36 F22, 7,62cm FK 296(r) Shipped to North Afica
76.2mm M39 F22 USV, 7,62cm FK 297(r)Shipped to North Afica
76.2mm M42 ZIS 3 (very few captured as most were produced when the Germans were retreating), 7,62cm FK 288(r)

The F22 and F22 USV were rebuilt into anti-tank guns. They had their elevation hand wheel moved from the right to the left of the gun, new German sights, a muzzle brake and the chamber was machined so that they could fire the German 7.5 cm PaK 40 ammunition. They were respectively known as 7.62 cm Pak 36(r) and 76.2 cm Pak 39(r).

If the gun examined by Colonel Berry had been a 76.2 mm divisional gun then he did not have any tables for the dimensions of a 3 inch 20 cwt. None of the Soviet guns had any common dimensions to the British gun except calibre. The British 3 inch had two types of breach, a semi-automatic sliding block (Mk1) and screw breach (Mk3). The early Russian gun had a screw block of a different type to the 3 inch Mk3. The later Soviet guns had different designs of sliding breach block than that of the Mk1. So there should be no confusion with the breach end of the gun. With a part worn barrel the diameter on examination of ordinance it would be expected that the measurement would be greater than the nominated calibre, so a 76.2mm, a 3 inch or a 75mm gun could all have a reading over 80mm at 1 inch past commencement of rifling therefore what the nominated calibre was would be hard to determine. This gun had been captured 2 times by the time Col Berry got his hands on it so the barrel would not be perfect. The barrel of the F22 was monoblock, whereas the 3 inch, depending on sub mark was either wire wound with a A tube or re-tubed with a monoblock liner.

I wonder if there is (or ever was) a photo of Col Berry's gun. Without it we can surmise all we like and still be none the wiser.

[Urmel]

Thanks for this Clive.m


TBH, I have no idea what the good colonel saw, and I won't speculate on that.

[David W]

Nice work Clive.

Alas, I have no photo to accompany the quote.

[eppanzer]

76.2mm M39 F22 USV

I believe Russians did not call this gun F-22, USV only.

[Sheldrake]

What is the source of the original quote? I think the quote includes a misprint.

I do not have the source to hand, but I think I read it in the Briotish Army review or the RA Journal decades ago and referred to weapons captured in November 1942 at El Alemein and not 1941. In 1941 the Germans had a more urgent need for 76.2mm guns on the Eastern Front than in the Western Desert.

[David W]

It was in a book I was reading at the time, I'll try to work out which one it was, as I may not still have it.
1942 makes better sense in all contexts, but unless it was a misprint the quote was 1941.

[Don Juan]

I believe this quote is in "Alamein" by Philip Warner, and I'm pretty sure it was dated 1941.

[Urmel]

Well that's really not quite likely, given what we know about the guns with the German forces then.

[JBbelgium]

I read the same quote in a Dutch book titled "With Rommel in North Africa, photodiary of Siegfried Klein 1. Abteilung 33. Flakregiment" by J.J. Brouwer.

He wrote:
At the end of operation Crusader, Colonel Berry was asked to take a look at a captured gun:

"I could not believe my eyes. It was a British three-inch AA gun manufactured by Vickers and fitted to a Russian carriage. It was a very effective and powerful weapon. Clearly it had been sent to Russia, captured by the Germans, serviced and sent to the Middle East."

The cannon appeared to be part of a few hundred pieces who became redundant after the introduction of the 3.7 inch guns and were delivered to the Soviet Union.
End quote.

Operation Crusader took place from 18 November – 30 December 1941.
Brouwer mentions later in the book that the Germans received the first ex-Soviet 7.62mm anti-tankguns between January and May 1942.

[JBbelgium]

http://nigelef.tripod.com/anti-tank.htm
From this website:
"3-inch 16-cwt, in 1941 100 outdated 3-inch 20-cwt AA guns were converted to anti-tank guns. These AA guns already had 12½ lb AP shot and telescopes. 50 ordnance were mounted on Churchill tanks and 50 on new 17-pdr carriages, the latter were issued equally to Home and Middle East Forces, the former had very limited traverse (7 degrees) and were only issued to Home Forces."

If correct than it seems that the British did try to build an AT-gun based on the 3-inch.


I was also thinking that the Italian Army had some 75mm/76mm AA-guns in use.