russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

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LMG15
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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#46

Post by LMG15 » 26 Nov 2014, 11:48

Just having a look at info on Pak36(r) and came across this post. It may be long dead but here's my 2 cents worth... I have had a look over a Russian gun captured at El Alamein and it is of the type photographed in the 104th. It is a Russian M36 7.72cm Divisional gun aka FK296(r) that has been converted for anti tank work. I has the lowered shield, modified T&E handwheels and replacement of the Russian sighting gear with the standard Pak sight block and ARM 38 indirect fire sight. The Pak sight's range drum is marked FK 296(r) and is chambered for the Russian ammo, hence no muzzle brake. The sight block is marked as being made in 1942. The only credibly captioned photo of this type of gun with muzzle brake (and Pak40 type ammo) was in Tunisia.

Some of the artwork made recently features the muzzle brake on Halm's gun, which I think is incorrect but nice acknowledgement od an old soldier all the same. Halm's account is in his biography as well as Rommel's War In North Africa (I think). It is clear that the guns were not issued too much before Ruweisat Ridge in mid 1942, and in Halms case, were lost at El Alemein. Other accounts in an old reference state 119 guns delivered in March 1942?

There is still some confusion over the correct designation of the gun that was modified for AT work, but had not yet been rechambered for the larger cartridge case. Most call the unmodified Russian gun the FK296(r), Gunter Halm's version the FK36(r) and the later version the Pak 36(r). I would be interesting to see what the sight adjusting drums are marked with on surviving guns.

cheers,
Damien

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David W
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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#47

Post by David W » 26 Nov 2014, 18:27

Hi Damien, thanks for that input.

It's interesting to note that in North Africa the Germans seem to have used the FIRST captured 76.2 guns in the Marder self propelled vehicle rather than as towed A/T guns.


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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#48

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 26 Nov 2014, 21:27

Damien, there is film of that gun passing through Tobruk just after its fall so well before Tunisia.
Alan

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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#49

Post by Urmel » 29 Nov 2014, 17:57

LMG15 wrote: It is clear that the guns were not issued too much before Ruweisat Ridge in mid 1942, and in Halms case, were lost at El Alemein. Other accounts in an old reference state 119 guns delivered in March 1942?
Damien

I posted the relevant info upthread. In short, they started issuing them in Jan 42, and there is no way that 119 were delivered by March, in my view.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#50

Post by LMG15 » 05 Jan 2015, 13:50

David, Alan and Urmel, thanks for illuminating responses. Regret that I have not been keeping an eye on the forum for a couple of months, so apologies for tardy response. I will look at my notification settings...

I was able to dig out "the old reference". It is German Tank and Antitank (Hoffschmidt / Tatum IV) published by WE Inc in 1968. This series of books was largely based on tech intel reports generated by APG in Maryland USA and the MGO in Melbourne Australia. My question mark relates to the quality of my recollection, which I anticipated to be imperfect, so I can now quote the text verbatim:

"A British patrol near Bir Hacheim in March 1942 was fired on by a German patrol with a gun that seemed remarkably accurate. After Rommel was driven off, leaving some of his weapons behind, they found that the gun was a 76.2mm Russian piece that the Germans had captured by the thousands in the early part of the war and adapted for their own use, primarily as a Pak gun. By May 1942, 117 of them had arrived in Cyrenaica, and some appeared at Gazala in a self-propelled version mounted on 5-ton half tracks or on tanks. At El'Alemein the 76.2 effectively supplemented Rommel's dwindling supply of 88's in late October 1942. This light and efficient gun, sometimes referred to as the 76.2mm Putilov."

There may be a few contestable statements in this quote with today's better access to information, but 117 guns by May 42 sounds more reasonable.

It is interesting that Halm's first experience with his new Russian gun (as reported in Wolf Heckmann's Rommel's War in Africa) was a scrambling affair at Bir Hacheim against a British patrol, but dates are not mentioned. It would be a nice co-incidence if it was two sides of the same encounter, but the Germans do not admit to leaving any of the Russian guns behind. I bought a copy of Ein Grenadier entscheidet eine Schlacht by Mobius, but apart from some new photos, I have not had time to translate it to get a more detailed picture of this event or any other. I hope there will be an English version of the book, otherwise Google translate will be getting a hammering,

cheers,

Damien

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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#51

Post by Urmel » 05 Jan 2015, 15:34

May 42 I could easily believe. There was a lot of stuff going across inbetween.

All the best

Andreas
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#52

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 11 Jan 2015, 22:36

Over on the DAK forum a loading bill for a ship from Naples to Tripoli has just been posted, date of movement 17th January 1942 and the cargo included 3 x Russian 7,62 cm guns !

http://www.deutsches-afrika-korps.de/vi ... ead#unread
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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#53

Post by David W » 11 Jan 2015, 23:02

That's early!

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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#54

Post by Urmel » 12 Jan 2015, 00:15

The first 10 guns (plus the six SP guns) came over on M.43, landing on 5 January.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#55

Post by David W » 12 Jan 2015, 07:45

Wow!

I thought that I had the M.43 manifest in full, but what I had landing at Tripoli did not include the guns. My copy lists 20x German field guns, the 76.2mm might be listed amongst those rather than separately as Russian perhaps?
Thank you.

The SP on M.43 were of course the Diana, not the Marder.

I had the first 6 Marder arriving on K.7 23/02/42.

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Re: russian 76,2 guns for 104th Infanterie reg.

#56

Post by Brad Hunter » 19 Jan 2015, 23:45

As of 02/14/43, at the beginning of “Unternehmen Frühlingswind,” the 3., 7. and 11. / 104. Panzergrenadier-Regiment each had 3 x 5cm Pak38, the 4., 8. and 12, / 104. Panzergrenadier-Regiment each had 1 x 7.5cm Pak40 and 3 x 5cm Pak38, and the four companies of the IV. / 104. Panzergrenadier-Regiment each had 2 x 7.5cm Pak40. The first three battalions of the 104. Panzergrenadier-Regiment had been reduced to two companies each. The IV. / 104. Panzergrenadier-Regiment had been formed from the Marsch-Bataillon A.29. Also, the 14. / 104. Panzergrenadier-Regiment had 4 x 7.5cm Pak40. The 39. Panzerjäger-Abteilung had been disbanded by this time.

SOURCE: KTB for the Panzerarmee "Afrika" / Deutsche-Italienische Panzerarmee / 1° Armata

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