The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

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Gooner1
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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#226

Post by Gooner1 » 28 Apr 2015, 11:15

Urmel wrote: There was no way to just have Benghazi. You either advance to the border with Egypt or you stay at Mersa el Brega. There is no defensible line inbetween those two.
Well the front stabilised in front of Tobruk for a few months in '42 .... but I'm still not sure what your point is. Rommel did indeed advance to and beyond the border with Egypt in April 1941.

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#227

Post by MarkN » 28 Apr 2015, 19:11

Hi Gooner,
Gooner1 wrote: With 30-odd breaky-downy Cruiser tanks and a dozen anti-tank guns it just wasn't going to happen period.
Although distorting historical fact may give the initial appearance of strengthening one's particular theory and beliefs, in the long run repeated distortions only serve to weaken overall credibility.
There were not just "30-odd breaky-downy Cruiser tanks and a dozen anti-tank guns". 2nd Armoured Division held in the forward area at least 40 'breaky-downy Cruiser tanks' and at least 46 light tanks and at least 50 Italian M13s. It also had more than a dozen anti-tank guns.


Hi Tom,
Tom from Cornwall wrote:Another relevant snippet from WO169/952 - AFV GHQ, ME, this describing the delays in bringing the knackered tanks of 7 Armoured Division back to the Delta in March 1941:
General Headquarters
Middle East
Cairo.
BM/AFV/75
6th Mar 1941.
Dear
Gordon-Hall proceeded to the Western Desert this morning. He will be away at least ten days. He brought out with him a long questionnaire demanding notes on tactics, supply etc. I really think the best way to answer them is to forward you a copy of the reports from the 7 Armoured Division when they are compiled. They are in the process of being put together now. All the units of the Division are back at last but their tanks have still to be embarked at Tobruk. This all takes time and of course is seriously holding up overhauls.
Which probably explains why there may have still been 7 Armd Div cruisers in Tobruk in early April.
Many thanks again.
My proposition is that there were at least 7 cruisers - possibly all A10s - left behind by 7th Armoured Division in Tobruk - and 18 light tanks.
Your find also evidences the notion that the 59+ cruisers brought by 2nd Armoured Division to Cyrenaica were considered to be in a better state than those of 7th Armd Div. In effect strengthening the argument that 2nd Armd Div was not the 'pauper' in this issue and actually held the 'best' that was available.


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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#228

Post by Attrition » 29 Apr 2015, 09:10

Have you tried comparing the British predicament in Cyrenaica with the Italian situation in Egypt a few months earlier?

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#229

Post by Gooner1 » 29 Apr 2015, 14:40

MarkN wrote: Although distorting historical fact may give the initial appearance of strengthening one's particular theory and beliefs, in the long run repeated distortions only serve to weaken overall credibility.
There were not just "30-odd breaky-downy Cruiser tanks and a dozen anti-tank guns". 2nd Armoured Division held in the forward area at least 40 'breaky-downy Cruiser tanks' and at least 46 light tanks and at least 50 Italian M13s. It also had more than a dozen anti-tank guns.
At least 40 Cruiser tanks? We know from 5 RTRs War Diary that they only had 28 A13s on the 28th March (and probably lost a few more to breakdowns before the 31st), they had handed over their 5 or 6 A10s to 6 RTR and where they were and what condition they were in is anyones guess.
Light Tanks there was 3rd Hussars with 13 of their own and another 13 with 'B' Squadron 6th RTR under command.
Italian Mediums were one squadrons worth of 'A' Squadron 6th RTR with 3rd Hussars at Mersah Brega. More Italian Mediums were back at Beda Fomm with the remainder of 6th RTR which as the WD for 1st April stated "A considerable amount of work on the M13s had not been completed, as orders prior to the codeword were to the effect that the Regt had to be ready for operations on the 5th April. The work still to be carried out consisted of:-
Suppression of wireless sets – C Sqn
Changing engine oil, calibration of injectors, cleaning oil filters and finally checking up of equipment B Sqn 3rd Hussars.
the training of drivers and gunners of 3rd Hussars who took over these tanks on march 26th."
And there was a platoon of Australian anti-tank gunners with 3rd Hussars too! :D

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#230

Post by MarkN » 29 Apr 2015, 19:16

Gooner1 wrote: At least 40 Cruiser tanks?
Yes.

If you have the appopriate WDs, you can either confirm or deny the following. All numbers refer to totals, not runners. The serviceability state being a moving target that changed by the hour.


2nd Armoured Division landed in Egypt with 125 cruisers (67 A13s, 46 A10s and 12 A10CSs).

1st Armoured Brigade (with 3RTR under comd) landed in Greece with 59 cruisers (7 A13s, 46 A10s and 6 A10CSs). MarkNote: 1ArmdBde HQ consisted of 7 A13 and 3 light tanks.

5RTR began moving to El Adem on 2 Feb arriving on 6 Feb. They arrived with 52 cruisers (46 A13s and 6 A10CSs).

3rd Armoured Brigade HQ moved forward later in Feb and passed through El Adem on 16 Feb. They left their 7 A13s with 5RTR and proceeded forward with just 3 light tanks.

As of this time (16/17 Feb), 7th Armoured Division still has a large proportion of its armour forward around Beda Fomm (cruisers and light tanks) and elements of 2nd Armoured Division have now 59 cruisers (53 A13s and 6 A10CSs) at El Adem or AOW Tobruk. However, 7ArmdDiv cruisers are shortly to be driven back to Tobruk and the majority shipped onwards to Egypt.


2nd Armoured Division HQ moved forward in March and seems not to have taken any of the 7 A13 and 3 light tanks that they landed in Egypt with.

12 March: A/5RTR moves forward with 16 cruisers (14 A13 and 2 A10CS) from El Adem to south of Agedebia and comes under comd 3ArmdBde on 17 March. Enroute, 3 A13 break down and are moved to 3ArmdBde LRS at Beda Fomm. Additionally, the 2 A10CS are handed to 6RTR at some point.

Total cruisers forward: 16 (14 A13 and 2 A10CS)
Total cruisers rearward: 43 (39 A13 and 4 A10CS) - plus an additional 7 cruisers ex 7ArmdBde in AOW Tobruk

21 March: 5RTR notes 49 cruisers on strength (44 A13 and 5 A10CS). However, this includes 11 A13 and 2 A10 forward with A Sqn but excludes the 3 at some time with LRS and excludes 10 others (9 A13 and 1 A10CS) presumably now in AOW Tobruk.

21March: bulk of 5RTR moves forward. The 3 A10CS are left behind and of the 33 A13, 24 made it forward with the remaining 9 not even starting the trip or breaking down enroute. Those breaking down, and those left behind in El Adem were recovered to AOW Tobruk.

By 28 March,
Total cruisers forward: 40 (38 A13 and 2 A10CS)
Total cruisers rearward: 19 (15 A13 and 4 A10CS) - plus an additional 7 cruisers ex 7ArmdBde in AOW Tobruk.

There is circumstantial evidence that both 2ArmdDiv and 3ArmdBde HQ gained at least a troop each of A13 from 5RTR for their own use/protection. 3 of these may well have been the 3 from LRS. So, a 5RTR WD entry of 28 March stating 28 serviceable cruisers is NOT an indication of the total number forward and probably not the total number serviceable in the forward area. It is likely that many, if not all, of the 6 with the two formation HQ were runners too.

As regards light tanks, 3H was left with 63 in Beda Fomm after the other regiments of 7ArmdDiv withdrew. They selected 46 for further use. Whether the excess 17 stayed forward or were recovered to Tobruk (likely) or Egypt (unlikely) is unknown. 3ArmdBde brought a further 3 forward for a conservative minimum of 49.

93 Italian M.13s were captured throughout Cyrenaica. The bulk in and around Beda Fomm. From this, the aim was to put about 50 into service. By 31 March, this was largely completed.

By my analysis, the orbat forward ran something like this...
--2Armd Div HQ: 3 A13
----3Armd Bde HQ: 3 A13 and 3 light tanks
------3Hussars: HQ 4 light tank, A/3H 14 light, C/3H 14 light, B/6RTR 14 light and A/6RTR 15 M.13 (total 46 light and 15 M.13 of which 42/43 lights are fit)
------5RTR: 32 A13 (28 fit?)
------6RTR: HQ 4 M.13, C/6RTR 15 M.13, B/3H 15 M.13 (total 34 M.13) Ignoring the A10CS for now.

There is also mention of 1RHA with 4 lights too....

Thus, 38 A13s forward with 33 or 34 probably fit (ish). In addition, 2 A10CS, at least 49 light tanks of which about 46 are fit and about 50 M.13s in various states of fitness.

Then there was 15 A13, 4 A10CS and 7 other cruisers (probably A10) in Tobruk alongside 18 serviceable light tanks


War dairies are great sources of information. By they are a long way from providing the full picture. The 3H WD mentions having 30 lights - and ignores the 13/14 of B/6RTR under comd. The 5RTR WD doesn't mention those handed over to the formation HQs. Not mentionning these details does not mean the tanks do not exist!

The tank state was not as bad as history records because the historians have quoted official WD entries etc rather than piecing he whole puzzle together.

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#231

Post by nmao » 29 Apr 2015, 19:45

Mark, i agree with your total numbers generally, but you seem to forget 4 light tanks with 1st RHA.

Initial allocation:
2nd AD HQ: 3 light, 7 A13 (could be 5?)
1st AB HQ: 3 light, 7 A13
3rd AB HQ; 3 light, 7 A13
3 RTR: 18 A10, 6 A10 CS, 28 A13
5 RTR: 28 A10, 6 A10 CS, 18 A13
1st KDG; 52 light
4th HUS: 52 light
1st RHA: 4 light
TOTAL: 117 light (should be all light mk VI B); 46 A10; 12 A10 CS; 67 A13.

regards,
-Nuno

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#232

Post by MarkN » 29 Apr 2015, 20:28

Hi nmao,
I did mention 1RHA above. :wink:
Nevertheless, 1RHA was not originally part of 2ArmdDiv and arrived in Egypt much earlier (with or before 2RTR/3H). It only came under their command for the first time in March 41. Thus, it's not really part of the 'initial allocation'.

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#233

Post by David W » 30 Apr 2015, 07:17

Mark.

Do you have the Regimental breakdown of "2nd Armoured Division landed in Egypt with 125 cruisers (67 A13s, 46 A10s and 12 A10CSs)."
Please.

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#234

Post by David W » 30 Apr 2015, 07:24

Nmao.

What dates were 1 KDG equipped with Light tanks?
I thought that they were 2x Sqds M/H MkII & 1x Sqd Dingo?

Thanks.

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#235

Post by nmao » 30 Apr 2015, 12:57

The info i have is from Jentz, and Peter Brown in Military Modelling.
From what i understand 1st KDG arrived with light tanks and were "shortly" converted to armoured cars to act as divisional reconnaissance.

See:
http://www.qdg.org.uk/pages/WW2-Part-1-71.php

As for the regimental breakdown AFAIK it is as i posted in the previous post.
The exception (wich i did not know) seems to be 1st RHA wich arrived earlier in October? (wich convoy?).
Jentz indicates they had 4 light tanks, but i don't know when they were assigned.

-Nuno

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#236

Post by MarkN » 30 Apr 2015, 16:03

David W wrote:What dates were 1 KDG equipped with Light tanks?
1937-1941
nmao wrote: The exception (wich i did not know) seems to be 1st RHA wich arrived earlier in October? (wich convoy?).
WS2/2A which brought out 2RTR/3H/7RTR/1RHA/51RA/64RA/68RA etc etc

In late 1939, 1RHA was nominally part of 1st Armoured Division but went to France as part of GHQ troops. It was reassigned to SAAR Force under 51st Highland Division. It fought with the division south of the Somme and a large chunk of it was lost at St. Valery. It was rebuilt in the UK and shortly after sent to Egypt. It served under XIII Corps and 7th Armoured Division during Op Compass and into Cyrenaica. In mid-March 1941 it came under command 3rd Armoured Brigade Group. Due to abysmal C3 by Gambier-Parry et al, 2nd Armoured Division managed to 'lose' it on 3/4 April!

2RHA was the field regiment of 2nd Armoured Division and came out with it on WS4/4A. It became part of 1st Armoured Brigade Group sent to Greece.

MarkNote:
The above brief historical resume is my own analysis off the top of my head drawn from a wide range of sources. Anybody with source documents wishing to improve, add or correct is welcome to jump in.

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#237

Post by RichTO90 » 30 Apr 2015, 18:14

MarkN wrote:
David W wrote:What dates were 1 KDG equipped with Light tanks?
1937-1941
My understanding is that the 1 KDG had Light Tanks Mark VIB issued in 1937 when they converted to armor, but left them behind when sent to the ME in November 1939. There they were issued Marmon-Herrington Armoured Cars, apparently all Mark II ME pattern, in January 1940.

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#238

Post by Urmel » 30 Apr 2015, 18:53

Gooner1 wrote:
Urmel wrote: There was no way to just have Benghazi. You either advance to the border with Egypt or you stay at Mersa el Brega. There is no defensible line inbetween those two.
Well the front stabilised in front of Tobruk for a few months in '42 .... but I'm still not sure what your point is. Rommel did indeed advance to and beyond the border with Egypt in April 1941.
Well I think the events of the Gazala battles showed the line was indefensible. The only reason it remained static was because both sides were building up their strength.

My point is i) that the advance to the border had a highly detrimental impact on the supply situation of the Axis forces, as recognised by Halder and also seen as a major error in the German Official History; and ii) that the capture of Benghazi, while mitigating this did not make up for it; and iii) that there was no possibility for the Axis to only capture Benghazi and maybe a bit of ground east of it.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#239

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 30 Apr 2015, 20:28

Rich,

For the KDGs and Marmon-Harringtons, I think you mean 1941, rather than 1940.

Again from WO169/952 - AFV GHQ. ME:
9 Jan 41:
The K.D.G’s are being fitted with Marmon Harringtons and they will do the Armoured car work until the Royals are trained. The former will then revert to tanks.

13 Feb 41:
We have over a hundred of these [M-H's] in the country now. The K.D.G’s have been equipped with them to relieve the 11 Hussars until the Royals are trained. The K.D.G’s will return to tanks as soon as the latter are ready to take over.
Regards

Tom

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Re: The "lost" battle of Mersa el Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March

#240

Post by RichTO90 » 30 Apr 2015, 23:12

Tom from Cornwall wrote:Rich,

For the KDGs and Marmon-Harringtons, I think you mean 1941, rather than 1940.

Again from WO169/952 - AFV GHQ. ME:
9 Jan 41:
The K.D.G’s are being fitted with Marmon Harringtons and they will do the Armoured car work until the Royals are trained. The former will then revert to tanks.

13 Feb 41:
We have over a hundred of these [M-H's] in the country now. The K.D.G’s have been equipped with them to relieve the 11 Hussars until the Royals are trained. The K.D.G’s will return to tanks as soon as the latter are ready to take over.
Regards

Tom
Thanks Tom, I wondered about that but it was what the regimental website said as well as a history of the Daimler's...I suspect that 1940 got substituted for 1941.

I also suspect that all this could be easily solved if I had access to all the tank state reports I copied back in 1999 and 2000 from BRAC BFME. :cry: They were spotty for parts of 1940, but then well covered on a periodic basis through 1942, when there is an - a-hem - "hiatus" between mid-May and mid-July when it was frankly noted that they hadn't a clue what was with the army in the field... :D Unfortunately they are all locked away now in the TDI archives.

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