3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

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Urmel
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#106

Post by Urmel » 08 Aug 2013, 10:33

ClintHardware wrote:Interesting. Are there any accounts of the pioniere them using them?

What do you think the P.W. told XIII Corps that caused the translation of "5 'I' tanks"

I will not add a row on the table for this information because the Panzer Is are still present within the Afrikakorps.
The 5 I tanks were Matilda II captured during BATTLEAXE.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#107

Post by Urmel » 08 Feb 2014, 13:52

Just came across this in my files, which seems that it might be of interest to the discussion. It's the weekly tank stat report requested by Churchill.
Attachments
tanks.JPG
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42


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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#108

Post by ClintHardware » 19 Feb 2014, 19:58

So this is two things at the same time: an AFV state and a statement of Losses?

The data in respect of Lost in Cyrenaica seems to be losses from combat and mechanical failure.

The 58 armoured cars would account for a whole regiment, and as no regiment was left without armoured cars, these must be losses experienced by the 11th Hussars since 10th June 1940 and then K.D.G. losses from February 1941 - 18/4/41.
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#109

Post by nmao » 19 Feb 2014, 20:59

I do believe the table lists cumulative losses probably since 10th June 1940.

Further info on the losses according to my notes:
lost in greece: 55 light VI B; 52 cruiser A10; 7 cruiser A13 (all tanks sent)
2nd AD reported lost: 49 cruisers; 47 light; 48 M13

regards,

-Nuno

PS: i still lack a complete listing of losses for Operation Compass till Beda Fomm :(

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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#110

Post by ClintHardware » 19 Feb 2014, 21:35

I am not sure what the table is telling us because there had not been 17 Cruisers, 34 Light Tanks and 12 Matildas lost in Tobruk by the 18th April - but these figures are closer to operational tanks present although 34 Light Tanks operational seems too high IIRC.
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#111

Post by Urmel » 19 Feb 2014, 22:59

The line 'Tobruk' is operational. The line 'Lost in Tobruk' covers the losses.

I am about 200 per cent certain that the losses only refer to tanks lost in the recent past, during the retreat from Cyrenaica.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#112

Post by Urmel » 19 Feb 2014, 23:53

ClintHardware wrote:So this is two things at the same time: an AFV state and a statement of Losses?
Yes.
ClintHardware wrote:The data in respect of Lost in Cyrenaica seems to be losses from combat and mechanical failure.
Enemy action. Whether that was the enemy shooting them up or overrunning them did not seem to be material.
ClintHardware wrote:The 58 armoured cars would account for a whole regiment, and as no regiment was left without armoured cars, these must be losses experienced by the 11th Hussars since 10th June 1940 and then K.D.G. losses from February 1941 - 18/4/41.
I agree with the former, but I wouldn't conclude the latter.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#113

Post by ClintHardware » 20 Feb 2014, 10:27

Yes agreed lost because of being overrun whatever the cause of KO.

It is interesting to see how few have been lost in Tobruk despite the fighting on the 11th and 14th but there would be some significant losses during 1st - 2nd May including Matildas.

The KDG took over from the 11th Hussars in February 1941 although some officers and NCOs stayed with the KDG to bring them up to speed on tactics etc. The KDG had some losses from air attack in the open desert

The German figures do not seem to have a way of counting overrun and out of reach panzers and yet that was beginning to be the case at Tobruk on the 14th and during the 1st - 2nd May. If only they had data on recovered panzers/tanks and armoured cars we would have a much better view of both sides. The same lack of data seems also true of Imperial/Empire forces.

I am going to look again at my Panzer Regiment 5 data in respect of your earlier comments on some landed panzers going to Panzer Regiment 8.

I am happy to correct everything no matter how bad the history is for Neame & Co. I just want to get the data right as far as possible.
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#114

Post by Urmel » 22 Feb 2014, 10:21

Hi

I agree that the German source situation is quite frustrating, and I am wondering where to look for something better.

On 1/2 May losses, unfortunately they very quickly ceased to do the combined operational/lost report and dropped the lost rows. On 30 April Tobruk reported the following:

Cruisers 17
I-tanks 12
Lights 33
ACs 9

On 7 March it reported
Cruisers 17
I-tanks 14 (+2)
Lights 36 (+3)
ACs 34 (+25)

My guess is the sudden increase in ACs points to the 58 figure for lost ACs in Cyrenaica being wrong.

There was an interim report for this period as follows for Tobruk:

Cruisers at midnight 2 May: 18 (Detachment 1 R.T.R.)
I-tanks at midnight 2 May: 14 (D Squadron 7 R.T.R.)
Light tanks at midnight 2 May: 35 (3 K.O.H./K.D.G. - 28, D Sqdr. 7 R.T.R. - 3, 1 R.H.A. - 4)
No info on ACs.

Same document states that of 104 I-tanks received from UK, 5 were lost by enemy action, referring one lost to a document dated 6 February, and 4 losses to a document dated 2 May.

Hope this helps.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#115

Post by ClintHardware » 27 Feb 2014, 10:32

Hi Urmel

Interesting data. The 7th March data did you mean 7th May or 7th March 42?

Can you please give the archive reference of the tank and AC data jpg. I wonder if the huge AC losses include Rolls Royces replaced by Marmon-Herringtons back at base and written off as obsolete.

I thought I would produce a 3rd Brigade and 7th Hussar tank, and 11th Hussar/KDG AC Damaged/KO/Abandoned list similar to the one I did for PR 5. A 7th Hussar squadron of Vickers appear in the last chapters of my book.

I found a CYRCOM signal the other day referring to a captured document on the 14th April. I will add it shortly as it gives some nice data although I am not sure how useful it is due to the date of the German document not being certain. It is not a show stopper, it is just interesting.
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#116

Post by Urmel » 27 Feb 2014, 11:15

:oops: When I say March, I mean May. I thought that was clear?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#117

Post by ClintHardware » 27 Feb 2014, 17:30

Here is that signal. I have tried to reproduce it as written but with new blank lines to make understanding a bit easier.

I have added it here because it seems interesting (to me anyway) in terms of what was just being discovered/confirmed as late as the 15th April.

Maj-Gen Lavarack had been given command of CYRCOM shortly after Neame and O'Connor disappeared and was also given overall command of Tobruk until he officially handed over to Maj-Gen Morshead on the 14th April. CYRCOM HQ then evacuated Tobruk by Sea and joined Lt-Gen Evetts at Matruh. Evetts had brought some of his British Troops Egypt staff and some from his 6th Infantry Division to Matruh to reform the Western Desert Force H.Q. Lavarack's CYRCOM staff joined Evetts and thus CYRCOM HQ is absorbed into the WDF referred to as DESFORCE. Bereford-Peirse was soon to take over this new WDF HQ.

This signal is Appendix 'A' from the CYRCOM/WDF Diary which is one file at Kew (WO 169/1258) This signal is dated 15 meaning 15th April and was sent 0950 hrs to Wavell (MIDEAST) and Repeated (Rptd) to Brigadier Gott's Support Group including some 2nd Support Group elements. The dashes - are as per the original document but the dots ... are mine for spacing.

Interesting line of questioning about who is driving the panzers. The German PWs being asked this question probably began laughing.

...............................................................................................................Appx ‘A’

To :- MIDEAST 9 AUST DIV Rptd SUPPORT GROUP

From :- DESFORCE .........................I ..1........................................... 15
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Document captured TOBRUK 14/4 gives following composition GERMAN 5 Lt Motorised Division (.)
3 Coy 39 Signals Bn (.) 3 Recce Unit (.) 5 Tank Regt of two Bns each 3 Coys (.) 2 MG BN (.) 8 MG Bn (.)
39 A Tk Bn 605 A Tk Bn (.) 1 Group 75 Arty Regt (.) 1 Group 33 AA Regt (.) 606 AA Bty (.)
Army Co-operation Sqn and Service (.)

5 Tank Regt has following tanks by types (.) Mk I 25 Mk II 40 Mk III 71 Mk IV 20 tanks (.) These
figures probably now reduced 30 per cent by battle casualties and breakdowns (.)

2 Pdr A Tk gun penetrates Mks I II and III (.) possibly also Mk IV but NOT certain (.)

Identifications TOBRUK PWs 14/4 2 Motorised Arty Regt attached 27 BRESCIA Div but state
27 Div NOT repeat NOT at TOBRUK (.) 5 Tank Regt of 5 Light Armd Div (.) 12 AA Regt GERMAN (.)
1 and 3 Coys 8 MG Bn GERMAN (.) PWs state NO GERMAN tanks driven by Italians
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..........................................IMMEDIATE
R. T. PRIEST Maj........................IN CIPHER......................................TOO 0950
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by ClintHardware on 27 Feb 2014, 17:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#118

Post by David W » 27 Feb 2014, 17:35

Queer that they weren't sure if the 2Pdr penetrated the PzKpfw IV, in the light of the claim to penetrate the PzKpfw III.
As the armour on the IV Ausf D was thinner!

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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#119

Post by ClintHardware » 27 Feb 2014, 18:05

Yes it is odd. It indicates a lack of generally held knowledge but a lot had happened since Mersa Brega.
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

#120

Post by Urmel » 27 Feb 2014, 18:40

That's quite understandable - they equated 'bigger' with 'better armoured', and presumably had no positive evidence of penetration of a Mk. IV. This view/concern about the Mk. IV was held until CRUSADER.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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