3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

[Gooner1]

Of the 150ish tanks that 3rd Armoured Division held in the forward area, about a dozen were lost to enemy action and the rest were driven into the ground.

We have been over this before. A large number of those 150ish tanks had been driven into the ground - or were otherwise unserviceable - before the enemy attacked.

[nmao]

MarkN, thank you for that document.

For comparison, Jentz in TCiNA says:
"The 2nd Armoured Division reported the loss of 49 cruiser tanks, 47 light tanks and all M13 tanks. All But 10 of the cruiser tanks were losto due to technical failure and lack of fuel."

regards,
-Nuno

PS:why do you doubt the accuracy of those numbers? do you have "better" numbers?

[MarkN]

MarkN, thank you for that document.

For comparison, Jentz in TCiNA says:
"The 2nd Armoured Division reported the loss of 49 cruiser tanks, 47 light tanks and all M13 tanks. All But 10 of the cruiser tanks were losto due to technical failure and lack of fuel."

regards,
-Nuno

PS:why do you doubt the accuracy of those numbers? do you have "better" numbers?

Hi nmao,

I am unable to locate the source of Jentz's quote from page 101. So l cannot (yet) make a comment on its credibility or context.

However, the details he gives on page 99 are from the 5RTR WD. Those numbers indicate 53 cruisers lost (48 IV and 5 IICS).

But those numbers are contradicted by CO 5RTR's report on his A13 losses. He doesn't state how many exactly, but you can extrapolate the number 41. Which when added to the supposed 5 IICS lost is 46 total.

So, just how many were lost? Was it ...
45 (AFV ME note),
46 (CO 5RTR report),
49 (Jentz, source unconfirmed),
53 (Jentz from 5RTR WDiarist) or
other? Australian OH mentions 38 l think from memory.

Doubting is easy when faced with the mass of contradictory evidence.

[Don Juan]

David, in general You are right. Note however that both Pz.III that were hit, promptly went up. Maybe the British were just lucky? In that case so were the Germans, 5 cm KwK didn't have a reputation for killing tanks at once (see Panzertruppen v.2 p 41 - when hit by a 5 cm gun, "very seldom does the tank catch on fire"). So destroying 5 out of 6 Cruisers hit was something unusual.

Depends on what the 5 cm KwK was firing.

If it was firing APHE then it would certainly brew up a British Cruiser almost instantaneously (until they were fitted with armoured ammo bins during second quarter 1942). This was evidenced during Crusader.

Ordinary AP would be less likely to cause a brew up. It might be interesting to find out when 5 cm APHE first arrived in this theatre.

[David W]

Ordinary German AP was still better than British "pointy" cannonballs!

July 1941 for PzGr for 5cm KwK in N.Africa I understand.

[Don Juan]

Ordinary German AP was still better than British "pointy" cannonballs!

July 1941 for PzGr for 5cm KwK in N.Africa I understand.

AP is AP i.e. pointy cannonball.

The Germans certainly had APCBC i.e. pointy canonballs with sticky tips and plastic hats.

They also had APCBCHE i.e. pointy canonballs with sticky tips and plastic hats that went bang.

Plus stuff that was even more specialized.

The question is, when, and in what order did these various ammunition types arrive in the theatre? This might explain why hits on British tanks seem to have gotten deadlier as 1941 progressed.

Also, if two German tanks went up in flames in this engagement, does this mean that they were not carrying armoured ammunition racks? It is always assumed that these were standard in German tanks from the beginning of the war (or beginning of the desert conflict at least), but maybe this isn't so.

[David W]

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong ) is that the German basic AP round was APCBC.
This basic APCBC was superior to the British solid shot. And that any true AP round would be at least slightly superior to plain solid shot.

[Don Juan]

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong ) is that the German basic AP round was APCBC.
This basic APCBC was superior to the British solid shot. And that any true AP round would be at least slightly superior to plain solid shot.

AP = solid shot
APC = solid shot with penetrating cap
APCBC = solid shot with penetrating cap and ballistic cap

AP is the best ammunition against rolled homogenous armour, as was fitted to British tanks.
APCBC is the best ammunition against face hardened armour, as was fitted to the front of German tanks.

In effect, both sides had the wrong ammo type - it was the increased thickness of the frontal armour on the Pz.III Ausf.H and J that was critical.

[Gooner1]

Also, if two German tanks went up in flames in this engagement, does this mean that they were not carrying armoured ammunition racks? It is always assumed that these were standard in German tanks from the beginning of the war (or beginning of the desert conflict at least), but maybe this isn't so.

I was wondering that. Maybe they were carrying more than the official amount of ammunition - a major cause of fire in later British/US tanks.

[MarkN]

The first A13 to be hit burned - and not because of ammo storage (at least initially)...

[Don Juan]

I was wondering that. Maybe they were carrying more than the official amount of ammunition - a major cause of fire in later British/US tanks.

Yes, that is the more likely reason - additional loose rounds being carried in the turret. It's interesting that this habit (re)appeared during 2nd Alamein, when German tanks started going up in flames again. Presumably German crews thought that they needed the extra ammo when coming up against the Grant and Sherman.

Carrying loose rounds in the turret was banned in British tanks circa March/April 42, as a provisional safety measure pending the fitting of armoured racks.

As regards A13's being hit in the auxiliary tank, the idea with these tanks is that they were for approach marches only, and were to be discarded before going into action.

[John Hilly]

Here's a little teaser I found for you.

What does W1 in the losses report represent?

With best, J-P

[nmao]

My guess it's a typo, in a QWERTY keyboard just above the W there the number 2, so i guess it's "21".

other opinions?

[David W]

Deleted post.

[Attrition]

How many of the personnel survived un-captured?