5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

Discussions on WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean. Hosted by Andy H
User avatar
ClintHardware
Member
Posts: 816
Joined: 21 Jan 2011, 13:17

5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#1

Post by ClintHardware » 02 Jul 2014, 08:44

Hi All

I found the document linked below in the War Diary of the WDF/CYRCOM and it contains a wealth of data on ammunition and weapon numbers and Orders of Battle from what must have been 5. leichte Div's own documents.

The numbers it quotes relate to the arrival of 5. leichte Div, although it does not mention the date of the German documents. It also fails to state how the documents were obtained - perhaps it was during one of the raids on Capuzzo or Sollum Barracks.

There are some 11 pages and two appendices (A and B) and in them, 2 cm cannons are referred to as Sup HMG, and in one of the tables it has placed AA3's armoured cars and cannons in the row for I. Panzer Regiment 5 (do not know why) The reference to 7.5 cm Artillery should perhaps be 10.5 cm except for those in AA3.

Appendix B contains some interesting points on ammunition and the fact that WDF HQ did not yet know what the German references were to the nature of some of them.

Was HEAT issued to the Panzer IVs at this time?

Section 5 analyses a dead Fallschirmjäger and some conjecture as to why he was found at Derna on the 11th. His weapon was too early to be a Fallschirmjägergewehr 42 but they do not seem to have previously seen the weapon he had. Any ideas?
I wonder who was retreating from Derna on the 11th who could have picked him off/up?

Hope you enjoy the attached
WDFIntSum128April1941.pdf
WDF Int Sun No. 128 24/04/41 based on Captured German Documents
(255.96 KiB) Downloaded 146 times
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4896
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 10:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#2

Post by Urmel » 02 Jul 2014, 11:31

Interesting, thanks for posting.

606 AA Battalion had SP 2cm AA guns, not 3.7cm
The 7.5cm should probably be 10.5cm in AR75.
I don't think HEAT was issued at this stage, there was no need.
The Germans referred to the 2cm AA gun as super heavy MG
There were no organic AA guns in the tank battalions.
The special 5cm round are probably Panzergranate ROT or Panzergranate 40 (Tungsten rounds)
They're not aware of the actual equipment of Panzerjaeger 605 (SP 4.7cm guns)

Thanks again.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42


User avatar
ClintHardware
Member
Posts: 816
Joined: 21 Jan 2011, 13:17

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#3

Post by ClintHardware » 02 Jul 2014, 13:52

Thanks Urmel

I have re-checked 606 AA and the entry is for 3.7 cm AA - perhaps the British confused German AA with the British 3.7-inch AA - i.e. a reading error leading onto a typing error.

What would have been the original German of Super Heavy in respect of the cannons? something schwere maschinengewehr ? Google Translate has just given me Super Heavy as being the German values for the English words Super Heavy .....those Americans....

I have found a few varied references to what sounds like deformed HEAT jet effects in eye witness statements of the time I am researching leading up to Operation BREVITY but nothing definite.

Thanks for your take on the data - I am sure you are right.

Interesting that 605's 4.7 cm are not mentioned - would love to examine the original document.

Just to note for everyone, in table B the figures of 330000 and 33000 rounds are as per the original and not a typo on my part. I re-checked those figures to make sure.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4896
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 10:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#4

Post by Urmel » 02 Jul 2014, 14:52

Hi

The Germans did have a 3.7cm AA gun, but it wasn't used by FlaBtl. 606, it was in North Africa with Res. Fla Abt. 814.
I have forgotten the exact German term now. Maybe Christoph Awender can help?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Dili
Member
Posts: 2201
Joined: 24 Jun 2007, 23:54
Location: Lusitania

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#5

Post by Dili » 02 Jul 2014, 20:37

I don't have a Res. Fla Abt. 814 in my lists, when it arrived?

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3516
Joined: 28 Mar 2004, 02:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#6

Post by David W » 03 Jul 2014, 06:51

Typo for 841 is my guess.

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3516
Joined: 28 Mar 2004, 02:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#7

Post by David W » 03 Jul 2014, 06:57

Clint.

Thanks for posting the document.


39th (Mot) PanzerJaeger Abteilung is showing a mix of 3.7cm & 5.0cm guns, which I believe is the Kstn.

However, in reality I understand that all the guns were 5.0cm PaK38. As the Germans knew that they would be coming up against the Matilda MkII.

However, I would like confirmation.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4896
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 10:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#8

Post by Urmel » 03 Jul 2014, 08:49

I'm not so sure about that.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4896
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 10:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#9

Post by Urmel » 03 Jul 2014, 08:52

David W wrote:Typo for 841 is my guess.
Faulty memory. Should be 841
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
ClintHardware
Member
Posts: 816
Joined: 21 Jan 2011, 13:17

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#10

Post by ClintHardware » 03 Jul 2014, 09:19

Hi All

I am sure there are errors and I will deal with all queries. I can not correct the document because we cannot tamper with a contemporary item but I will add notes to the foot of it or in the text to highlight the errors and unanswered questions and then I will issue a version 2.

Please rip it up as much as you can.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !

Alanmccoubrey
Member
Posts: 3370
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 14:44

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#11

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 03 Jul 2014, 12:16

Urmel wrote:Interesting, thanks for posting.

606 AA Battalion had SP 2cm AA guns, not 3.7cm
The 7.5cm should probably be 10.5cm in AR75.
I don't think HEAT was issued at this stage, there was no need.
The Germans referred to the 2cm AA gun as super heavy MG
There were no organic AA guns in the tank battalions.
The special 5cm round are probably Panzergranate ROT or Panzergranate 40 (Tungsten rounds)
They're not aware of the actual equipment of Panzerjaeger 605 (SP 4.7cm guns)

Thanks again.
I don't understand the comment about there being "no organic AA guns in the tanks battalions".
Alan

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4896
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 10:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#12

Post by Urmel » 03 Jul 2014, 12:34

My mistake. I realise now this refers to the 42 2cm KWK in the Panzer II, not to AA guns.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3516
Joined: 28 Mar 2004, 02:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#13

Post by David W » 03 Jul 2014, 14:45

I'm not so sure about that.
That's why I sought confirmation.

Alanmccoubrey
Member
Posts: 3370
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 14:44

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#14

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 03 Jul 2014, 18:02

David, the anti-tank battalion did have the mix of 37 and 50 mm guns.
Alan

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3516
Joined: 28 Mar 2004, 02:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 5 leichte Div Captured Docs in WDF Int Sum 24/04/41

#15

Post by David W » 03 Jul 2014, 18:23

Alan.

Do you have a reliable source for that? (no offence intended)

Post Reply

Return to “WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean”