102nd AA and A/Tk Regiment Operation CRUSADER

[ClintHardware]

I found in the regimental history edited by Joan Bright that during CRUSADER there was a protracted fire fight with panzers on the 24th November during which one Panzer III was knocked out off the sight scale at what the gunners estimated to be over 2000 yards. This was clearly pure luck because later accounts during the operation have 2 Pdr AP Shot "bouncing off" Panzer IIIs and IVs at 400 yards.

If anyone is interested I will write up the details.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Was the "bouncing off" not the famous separation of the tracer element from the round while the actual warhead penetrated ? Or are you going to tell me that is just an "urban myth" ?

[ClintHardware]

I wasn't there Alan.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Hi,

That looks interesting. Have you seen the discussion here?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&t=194230

Cheers

Tom

[ClintHardware]

Hi Tom

I thought no was interested so just left this topic. However, I will scan the text from the regimental history tomorrow and post here. It is a contemporary account stating what was seen to happen by the men of the 102nd A/Tk Regt (Northumberland Hussars) present - and there was no reference to tracers. Joan Bright's 1950s edited book is one of the rarest regimental histories to find but I was very lucky to find a copy on Ebay a month back.

[Urmel]

The tracer issue may not have been known then.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Until the British started holding the battlefield and recovering/destroying enemy wrecks they couldn't know.

[Urmel]

I think it took a bit longer than that.

[ClintHardware]

Hi All

Apologies for the delay. Below is a link to a pdf from the Northumberland Hussars WW2 Regimental History in respect of 20th - 24th November 1941. I thought the reporting very interesting including the account of the numbers of rounds fired which surprised me.

Northumberland Hussars Extract Crusader 20th - 24th November 1941.pdf

(294.56 KiB) Downloaded 44 times

[ClintHardware]

AND this is the "bouncing off" part of the story a month later:

Three days later the battles began. The 22nd Armoured Brigade became heavily engaged and by 30th December had lost so many tanks that it was no longer fit for further operations and orders were given for its relief by the Support Group. It had inflicted considerable damage on the enemy but the long march across the desert from Gazala had been too much for many of its tanks and in the battle of the 28th December it had lost many more. It was during this battle that the order "Rally on Bull" (code-name for El Haseiat) was given, which was said to be the only order issued through-out the day by Brigade Headquarters.

It was also during this battle that "D" Battery had a great shoot. "Two guns which I had in a rearguard line with two tanks had a good shoot", writes Major Pumphrey, "certainly as far as quantity of ammunition fired was concerned. We let off about three hundred and thirty shots in what seemed like ten minutes but was probably an hour. It was difficult to tell what the score was, but certainly it amounted to six tanks, three of which were going round the left flank to cut off our only line of retreat. It was amazing to see shells bouncing off Mark IVs (and often Ills as well) at four hundred yards. Eventually we had to pull out because we had no ammunition left and the tanks were off too."

What had happened was that at mid-day on the 28th, when it was obvious that the enemy tanks could outflank the gun position, a general withdrawal had been ordered and a section of two "D" Battery anti-tank guns, commanded by Sergeant Micky Watson and Sergeant John Eastwood, was detailed to move to the flank to act as rearguard. They took up hull-down positions in the sand-dunes and waited. The enemy tanks closed in and one of the two "Crusader" tanks with the guns was hit. Then one gun ran out of ammunition and the other "Crusader" withdrew while the enemy closed in to four hundred yards. The two anti-tank guns brewed up another tank apiece before the ammunition gave out, then withdrew. During this action, which lasted half an hour, they had brewed up six enemy tanks and disabled several others.

Early the next morning the enemy closed in again and the Battery suffered another hectic day of shelling and shooting. Sergeant Watson and Sergeant Eastwood were ordered forward to distract attention from the field guns. This they did under heavy fire.

Sergeant Hynes' truck received a direct hit from a 75-mm. shell. Gunner J. Dawson had been sitting in his seat and was killed, and Gunner Ronald Pearcy's hand was blown off. Bombardier J. Price—one of three brothers serving in the Regiment—helped Sergeant Hynes to carry Gunner Pearcy to the portee.

Next day, the 29th, the enemy abandoned their counter¬attack, which was later proved to have been cover for the main enemy withdrawal to the Agheila Line.

[Urmel]

Here is the combat report from one of the German elements for 28 December.

http://rommelsriposte.com/2008/07/16/co ... 28-dec-41/

The Afrikakorps had complete write-offs of 7 tanks that day.

[ClintHardware]

Thanks Urmel

Its always good to see what the other side said of events. Is there anything published from the panzer perspective that covers the events surrounding the seven write-offs? I am not up to speed on Crusader currently and I have not been specifically researching it as yet.

[Urmel]

Well the timing of the history seems off by a few hours. The Germans really only pushed 22 Armoured Brigade off around 1630. Most losses seem to have occurred around 1445 and just after, when the reinforced PR8 hit about 40 British tanks, which gave a spanking to the centre company of PR8, under Lieutenant Schubert, who was himself wounded. They almost managed to get the Germans to retreat too.

[ClintHardware]

Interesting. Thanks

[Brevity]

Here is the combat report from one of the German elements for 28 December.

http://rommelsriposte.com/2008/07/16/co ... 28-dec-41/

The Afrikakorps had complete write-offs of 7 tanks that day.

Well the timing of the history seems off by a few hours. The Germans really only pushed 22 Armoured Brigade off around 1630. Most losses seem to have occurred around 1445 and just after, when the reinforced PR8 hit about 40 British tanks, which gave a spanking to the centre company of PR8, under Lieutenant Schubert, who was himself wounded. They almost managed to get the Germans to retreat too.

Interesting. DAK KTB claims 3/III written off (burned out), 3/III 1/IV damaged. Kevin Fish, PR8 history has 2/II 4/III 1/IV "lost" on 28 Dec, Lt.Becker and 3 other panzer commanders killed, 14 wounded incl. Oblt.Schubert. He includes lengthy story of 4./PR8 veteran about how his Pz.IV was set on fire in late December.

As for distribution of losses, one document i've seen seems to suggest 3./PR8 have lost 4/III shortly after arrival, so i guess they're the main candidate. PR5 hasn't written off anything in late December.

What was the role of Schubert? 3 coy commander?