Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
Thank you Fabrizio.They were active as of spring 41.Wife told me of a low night time drop right at the surf line,knocked out cold and somebody dragged him onto the beach.Somewhere he met some Turks.
Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
Let me draw some conclusions/comments about this interesting story:
- AFAIK, OVRA acted as internal security, especially concerning Italian anti-fascist activities. OVRA cooperated with SIM in several counter-intelligence operations but it is quite new (at least for me) its potential involvement in intelligence/sabotage missions abroad
- Combining the date of beginning of the activities (spring 1941), the base (Rhodes), the presence in the area of French and Turks, I guess that these missions were performed from July 1941 mainly in the former French Syria, after the invasion of Syria and Lebanon by British and Free French Forces. Before that date, a Centro SIM with a radio station was in Beyrouth and probably there was no need to perform such risky missions.
- The detail of folding mopeds could give us the clue that some missions were performed during 1942: frankly, I wonder why the mopeds were airdropped. If one carries out a clandestine operation, he should mainly care to blend in with the surrounding environment, helped by local supporters/receivers not to go around with a funny scooter
I would be interested to have your feeling about.
Regards
Fabrizio
PS I have to underline that I have only a shallow knowledge about these aspects of WWII. Unfortunately, apart some memoirs and some books about organizational aspects of Italian intelligence, the specific field of clandestine missions behind enemy lines has been little investigated (or maybe, there are yet some problems in finding out the relevant documentation), so far.
- AFAIK, OVRA acted as internal security, especially concerning Italian anti-fascist activities. OVRA cooperated with SIM in several counter-intelligence operations but it is quite new (at least for me) its potential involvement in intelligence/sabotage missions abroad
- Combining the date of beginning of the activities (spring 1941), the base (Rhodes), the presence in the area of French and Turks, I guess that these missions were performed from July 1941 mainly in the former French Syria, after the invasion of Syria and Lebanon by British and Free French Forces. Before that date, a Centro SIM with a radio station was in Beyrouth and probably there was no need to perform such risky missions.
- The detail of folding mopeds could give us the clue that some missions were performed during 1942: frankly, I wonder why the mopeds were airdropped. If one carries out a clandestine operation, he should mainly care to blend in with the surrounding environment, helped by local supporters/receivers not to go around with a funny scooter
I would be interested to have your feeling about.
Regards
Fabrizio
PS I have to underline that I have only a shallow knowledge about these aspects of WWII. Unfortunately, apart some memoirs and some books about organizational aspects of Italian intelligence, the specific field of clandestine missions behind enemy lines has been little investigated (or maybe, there are yet some problems in finding out the relevant documentation), so far.
- YankeeZulu
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Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
A freefall of over 30 seconds. That's balls considering the infancy of parachuting technology at that time. The term "HAHO" hadn't yet been devised but that drop altitude would certainly be considered "high" in 41 or 42.gttf wrote:Hello,
I've found only an operational jump from 2.000 m (6560 ft) with opening at about 600 m (1970 ft) by a 7-agents team of SIM (Italian Army Intelligence Service) dropped around Barce (Libya) in February, 1943 for a sabotage mission.
True HALO/HAHO infiltrations utilizing O2 weren't experimented until the 50's and not on record in combat until 1970(Laos).
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- fredleander
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Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
I agree. And, jumping (and opening) within non-oxygen altitude limits (12.500 feet) would be rather impractical without steerable canopies. To my knowledge, at that time such had not been developed except pulling on the "normal" lifting lines - or straps. A HALO jump (in contemporary fashion, below 12-15.000 feet without oxygen), should be feasible.YankeeZulu wrote:A freefall of over 30 seconds. That's balls considering the infancy of parachuting technology at that time. The term "HAHO" hadn't yet been devised but that drop altitude would certainly be considered "high" in 41 or 42.gttf wrote:Hello,
I've found only an operational jump from 2.000 m (6560 ft) with opening at about 600 m (1970 ft) by a 7-agents team of SIM (Italian Army Intelligence Service) dropped around Barce (Libya) in February, 1943 for a sabotage mission.
True HALO/HAHO infiltrations utilizing O2 weren't experimented until the 50's and not on record in combat until 1970(Laos).
I Believe the Russian army used manual opening as standard for their regular paras. There's a CD on sale on eBay covering all Italian parachute types. That may contain some info on their use, as well.
Fred
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf
- YankeeZulu
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Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
I'm not sure what the current SOP is, but 14,000 ft without supplemental O2 is perfectly acceptable. I've exited as high as 17,000 ft without it.
<1>
Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
Fabrizio,my belief is that they went high because the coastline was too dangerous.They had bikes to travel to the target.They drifted far and this may have split them up.
This man had long dealings with OVRA. He called then "Whiteshirts".They were quite active in Yugoslavia.
This man had long dealings with OVRA. He called then "Whiteshirts".They were quite active in Yugoslavia.
Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
Yankee Zulu, thank you for the practical experience info.He emphasized that it was cold.
- YankeeZulu
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Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
You lose about 1 degree F every 1000ft.
I/E: If its 70º F at surface level and your drop altitude is 12,500ft, your drop temperature will be about 57.5º F. Now imagine a drop w/O2 from 22K ft in the winter w/a surface temp of 20º F coupled w/a vertical wind speed of about 120mph.
ALCON: Apologies to all board members for my lack of metric conversion. In the US we kind of pick and choose what standard of measurements we use.
I/E: If its 70º F at surface level and your drop altitude is 12,500ft, your drop temperature will be about 57.5º F. Now imagine a drop w/O2 from 22K ft in the winter w/a surface temp of 20º F coupled w/a vertical wind speed of about 120mph.
ALCON: Apologies to all board members for my lack of metric conversion. In the US we kind of pick and choose what standard of measurements we use.
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- fredleander
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Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
It's acceptable, but not really permissible. To my knowledge, if it hasn't been changed since I served, the limit for non-oxy jumps are 12.500 feet ASL. Same goes for flying in general.YankeeZulu wrote:I'm not sure what the current SOP is, but 14,000 ft without supplemental O2 is perfectly acceptable. I've exited as high as 17,000 ft without it.
Fred
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf
- YankeeZulu
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Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
If I remember correctly, @ 15K it was mandatory but would be donned much lower for training purposes, like 12.5K. 18K required a one hour pre-breathe.
I remember the couple non-O2 drops from 17K I've had were from non-pressurized aircraft following a rapid ascent, so we didn't loiter at drop altitude(They were actually just over, like 17.2K-17.4K). Even still, I remember experiencing very mild hypoxia... slight confusion and sudden accelerated heart rate just prior to exit, not to mention a tremendous urge to get out the door and to a lower altitude ASAP.
I remember the couple non-O2 drops from 17K I've had were from non-pressurized aircraft following a rapid ascent, so we didn't loiter at drop altitude(They were actually just over, like 17.2K-17.4K). Even still, I remember experiencing very mild hypoxia... slight confusion and sudden accelerated heart rate just prior to exit, not to mention a tremendous urge to get out the door and to a lower altitude ASAP.
<1>
Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
The Canguru was the S.82, said to be the first propose build military transport.
Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
Ok,he has been gone 20 years now,been jogging the memory banks.They had oxygen feeds,but he "only used it a little".I have also seen a pic and short article of it somewhere and I am sure I would have saved it.I have a couple of dead laptops around here.
By chance is there a record of Ettore Muti being in Rhodes in 42?
By chance is there a record of Ettore Muti being in Rhodes in 42?
Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
Lt. Col. Ettore Muti was the CO of the 41. Gruppo Aerosiluranti (torpedo-bombers), based in Rhodes. For sure he was in Rhodes up to march, 1942 because he carried out an unsuccessful (recorded) torpedo attack against the Adm. Vian's ships on the evening of 23rd, March, 1942 (the day after the 2nd Sirte Battle). His plane was damaged by AAA (see http://www.societaitalianastoriamilitar ... 0Sirte.pdf).
anothe Internet source gives a clue about his presence in Rhodes at least on may, 24th, 1942 (http://www.blitzkriegmilitaria-forum.co ... -9100.html).
I have to dig in some other books to find out some other infos.
Regards
fabrizio
anothe Internet source gives a clue about his presence in Rhodes at least on may, 24th, 1942 (http://www.blitzkriegmilitaria-forum.co ... -9100.html).
I have to dig in some other books to find out some other infos.
Regards
fabrizio
Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
Thank you Fabrizio.Muti had a large ego.
Re: Recorded HAHO Jumps 41-42?
He was there also in 1940 for the bombing of Bahrain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_o ... rld_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_o ... rld_War_II