Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

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shane1967
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Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#1

Post by shane1967 » 24 Aug 2015, 04:12

Dear colleagues

Please find attached two documents prepared in February 1942 by British Intelligence to assess the number of panzer reinforcements received to make up for the significant losses incurred in Operation Crusader. An interesting view from the 'other side of the hill'.

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cheers

Shane Lovell
Canberra, Australia

MarkN
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Re: Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#2

Post by MarkN » 24 Aug 2015, 15:43

And the Brits are still counting the very same pantzers 75years later. Still trying to come up with an explanation of how the Germans tricked them into performing so badly. :wink:


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Urmel
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Re: Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#3

Post by Urmel » 27 Aug 2015, 23:36

Thanks for posting this.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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ClintHardware
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Re: Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#4

Post by ClintHardware » 12 Dec 2015, 09:43

Thanks for posting Shane.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !

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Urmel
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Re: Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#5

Post by Urmel » 13 Dec 2015, 18:59

Couple of points on this.

1) 3rd and 7th Squadrons of PR5/21st Panzer were sunk on Carlo del Greco and Fabio Filzi, together with 52 Italian tanks, in the Gulf of Taranto, on 13 December 1941. HM/Sub Upright making what was probably the best use of four torpedoes in the North African campaign.
2) 3rd and 7th Squadrons of PR8/15th Panzer arrived on Ankara in Benghazi and Napoli in Tripoli. Issues existed in the analysis but they still got it right on the totals for the counter offensive (see 3) below). Issues:
i) British intel missed the Napoli delivery, assuming that that squadron got in on the M.43 convoy on 5 January.
ii) British intel considered 22 Armoured Brigades claim that the Germans lost 30 tanks in the battles between Christmas and New Year. The non-technical summary of that claim is 'bollocks'.
3) Point 2.c) is pretty much spot on for 19/20 January, and 3.b) is a slight overestimate because it doesn't account for small permanent and larger temporary losses by 25 January.
4) The numbers they observe are correct for 23 December, but then underestimate arrivals (88 against 161 in reality) and overestimate net recovered tanks (because that's what they have to do to believe the kill claims during the post Christmas and counter offensive battles).
5) The final analysis is not that far off. Between the 10 tanks arriving on Atlas at the end of January, the 107 tanks on M.43 and T.18, as well as the 56 tanks operational on 5 January, and then accounting for some permanent losses during the counter offensive, it's an okay result to get to 162, when the total cannot have been more than 186 (24 plus all deliveries). Net losses after accounting for recoveries in the post-Christmas and counter offensive battles are probably less than 20.

Whether that result is okay because a broken clock is right twice a day, or because of the quality of the analysis, I am not prepared to hazard a guess.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Urmel
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Re: Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#6

Post by Urmel » 13 Dec 2015, 19:36

By the way, this is from WO201/???

Thanks in advance for clearing that up :)
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

MarkN
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Re: Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#7

Post by MarkN » 13 Dec 2015, 21:23

Urmel wrote:By the way, this is from WO201/???

Thanks in advance for clearing that up :)
Says WO 201/401 on the front cover. :wink:

Ps. Have you checked the 5.leichte file ref l gave you?

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Urmel
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Re: Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#8

Post by Urmel » 13 Dec 2015, 21:27

You probably live closer to Freiburg than I do mate. :) My ageing eyes struggled with the '1'
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

MarkN
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Re: Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#9

Post by MarkN » 13 Dec 2015, 21:41

Depends where you are. I'm not in the EU. :wink:

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Urmel
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Re: Counting panzers - British attempts in Feb 1942

#10

Post by Urmel » 13 Dec 2015, 22:05

Neither will I be once the referendum is held.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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