Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

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Dili
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#76

Post by Dili » 14 Dec 2016, 12:38

It can be but it wasn't the case. Of course if you say that Axis needed 10 Armored Divisions there things might change regarding shipping.
But there wasn't ever 10 Armored Divisions available to be sent. By June 1943 Italians had almost no tanks except French captured ones and WW1 era FT17 to fight in Sicily.

It does not seem that units were not sent because there was lack of shipping.

OHara
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#77

Post by OHara » 16 Dec 2016, 20:04

In round numbers Italy started the war with 2.2 million GRT of available shipping (excluding the 1.2 million GRT trapped overseas, etc). This was slightly surplus to needs (given the shutting down of oceanic traffic). Through November 1942 construction was .275 million GRT. Losses were 1.275 million GRT. In November 1942 the Axis appropriated .8 million GRT of French shipping when they occupied the rest of France. With German tonnage, the Axis started 1943 with nearly the same tonnage available in the Mediterranean as they had in June 1940.

The tonnage dedicated to the North African traffic was approximately 180,000 GRT. These were the fastest ships and, as losses accrued, they were replaced by slower, or less suitable vessels, but there was always enough shipping to supply Africa because North Africa had the top priority. The losses suffered by Italy's merchant marine affected the civilian economy first and then military traffic in other areas. After November 1942, however, there was sufficient shipping to meet all requirements.

Vince


ljadw
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#78

Post by ljadw » 16 Dec 2016, 21:30

Dili wrote:It can be but it wasn't the case. Of course if you say that Axis needed 10 Armored Divisions there things might change regarding shipping.
But there wasn't ever 10 Armored Divisions available to be sent. By June 1943 Italians had almost no tanks except French captured ones and WW1 era FT17 to fight in Sicily.

It does not seem that units were not sent because there was lack of shipping.
Between june 1940 and may 1943,Italy sent 1960 tanks to North Africa ,the Germans 1393.

Dili
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#79

Post by Dili » 16 Dec 2016, 21:48

Tanks or armored vehicles ljadw?

ljadw
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#80

Post by ljadw » 16 Dec 2016, 22:53

Battistelli writes "tanks " on P 15 of "Italian soldier in North Africa 1941-1943 .

Dili
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#81

Post by Dili » 17 Dec 2016, 16:23

I doubt there were 1900 tanks to be sent - some small numbers remained in Italy and Yugoslavia - it might include semoventi 75/18 and 47/32, Autoblinda and L3 tankettes.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#82

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Dec 2016, 19:14

ljadw wrote:Between june 1940 and may 1943,Italy sent 1960 tanks to North Africa ,the Germans 1393.
The Germans sent 1,441. They lost 140 in transit. They received 1,301.
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ljadw
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#83

Post by ljadw » 17 Dec 2016, 19:57

Dili wrote:I doubt there were 1900 tanks to be sent - some small numbers remained in Italy and Yugoslavia - it might include semoventi 75/18 and 47/32, Autoblinda and L3 tankettes.
One should accept the Italian definition of a tank, as one should accept the German definition ,as there is no universal definition :if the Germans labelled the Pz1 as a tank, why should the Italians not label semoventi 75/18 as a tank .

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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#84

Post by ljadw » 17 Dec 2016, 20:06

From WWIIForum "German tanks sent to Africa "

Sent

PZ 1 25

Pz2 : 122 (lost 2 )

Pz3 : 809 (lost 82)

Pz4 : 405 (lost 77)

Tiger 31

Total 1392 (lost : 161 )


149 tanks were lost to enemy action, 13 were lost to shipboard fire.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#85

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Dec 2016, 20:51

ljadw wrote:From WWIIForum "German tanks sent to Africa "

Sent

PZ 1 25

Pz2 : 122 (lost 2 )

Pz3 : 809 (lost 82)

Pz4 : 405 (lost 77)

Tiger 31

Total 1392 (lost : 161 )


149 tanks were lost to enemy action, 13 were lost to shipboard fire.
Sorry, but no.

54 Pz I sent and 54 arrived
177 Pz II sent and 161 arrived
839 Pz III sent and 761 arrived
307 Pz IV sent and 264 arrived
31 Tiger sent and 31 arrived
7 kl. Befehls-Pz. sent and 7 arrived
26 gr. Befehls-Pz. sent and 23 arrived
Last edited by Richard Anderson on 18 Dec 2016, 00:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Ironmachine
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#86

Post by Ironmachine » 17 Dec 2016, 21:06

Richard Anderson wrote:177 Pz II sent and 181 arrived
Obviously there is a mistake there.

In case anyone is interested, this thread in feldgrau:
http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic ... 45&t=14292
had another two different sets of numbers of German tanks sent to Africa (by model), plus one (also by model) for Italian tanks.

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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#87

Post by Richard Anderson » 18 Dec 2016, 00:59

Ironmachine wrote:
Richard Anderson wrote:177 Pz II sent and 181 arrived
Obviously there is a mistake there.

In case anyone is interested, this thread in feldgrau:
http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic ... 45&t=14292
had another two different sets of numbers of German tanks sent to Africa (by model), plus one (also by model) for Italian tanks.
Good catch and corrected, it should have read 161. Yes, there a number of slightly varying figures, but you can invalidate ljwd's numbers just by looking at those for the Pz I.
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Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
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MarkN
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#88

Post by MarkN » 18 Dec 2016, 18:13

ljadw wrote:From WWIIForum "German tanks sent to Africa "
Wow! An anonymous poster on the internet. Must be correct!
ljadw wrote:PZ 1 25
Oh dear!

29 had been delivered before the end of March 1941!

Probably best not to read any further....

ljadw
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#89

Post by ljadw » 18 Dec 2016, 21:05

MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote:PZ 1 25
Oh dear!

29 had been delivered before the end of March 1941!

..

Which does not mean that more were sent after March 1941 .

Besides, the post on Feldgrau mentions 25 Pz1 sent to NA between 8-10 march 1941.

And , what is wrong with an anonymous poster, such as David W. on Feldgrau ?

MarkN
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Re: Strategic Decision to Defend Malta

#90

Post by MarkN » 19 Dec 2016, 13:28

ljadw wrote:
MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote:PZ 1 25
Oh dear!

29 had been delivered before the end of March 1941!
Which does not mean that more were sent after March 1941 .
So???

You posted information that a total of 25 Pz.I had been delivered to North Africa for the entire period of WW2. I responded that the number had already reached 29 by the end of March 1941!

My post was to suggest that the numbers you have posted are inaccurate, not to provide the definitive answer.

So, your point is? Or was it just a straw man deflection?
ljadw wrote: Besides, the post on Feldgrau mentions 25 Pz1 sent to NA between 8-10 march 1941.
So???

That part of the post is correct. The other 4 were landed later the same month.

So, your point is?
ljadw wrote:And , what is wrong with an anonymous poster, such as David W. on Feldgrau ?
If you don't know the answer to that question, then it explains why you are so willing to share their thoughts and, at the same time, not grasp their lack of historical credibility.

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