War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941

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Southpower
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#106

Post by Southpower » 20 Nov 2003, 12:40

So Mark V. your question was about who started civil war in Slovenia. In my opinion there was no civil war. Domobrans and other formations were fighting in name of Nazi forces! First in the resistance were pre-war communists and other activists and members of SKOJ. then they went into the woods and they needed food. If some people wouldnt give them food they took it by force. Now my question is (actually I have no informs. about it but am very interested to know it) why no white guard and Domobrans were in Lower Styria? Did everyone agree to give food and other supplies to Partisans?

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K.Kocjancic
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#107

Post by K.Kocjancic » 20 Nov 2003, 12:58

Southpower wrote:In my opinion there was no civil war.
There was a civil war. The simplest definition of civil war is war within the nation between 2 or more different groups.
Southpower wrote:Now my question is (actually I have no informs. about it but am very interested to know it) why no white guard and Domobrans were in Lower Styria?
Until 1943 Germans didn't allowed any forming of any anti-communist force. Instead they mobilized masses of Slovenes for their own army. Plus there was no need for any extra units because German police and army were very effective against Partisans. Remember 14. Div.?

Only after 1943, when Italy collapsed, they allowed that Gorenjsko Domobranstvo will be formed. Again this was very effective force, because a lot of these men were transfered to Domobranci from Army (with OK by Gestapo, but not OK by Army).


BTW. White Guard (Bela garda) isn't appropriate name for Vaške straže and later MVAC (when Italians started to supply them). Please, use their official name.


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#108

Post by K.Kocjancic » 20 Nov 2003, 14:53

OK, another point of view.

KPJ (Communist Party of Yugoslavia) were working together with Soviet PJ, right. And Soviet communists were in power more time then NSDAP in Germany, right? And they did more crime in their own country then Nazis in theirs, right?

Partisans were so collaborating (working together) with another mass-murderer Stalin in fight against Hitler, like Domobranci were collaborating with Hitler in fight against Tito, right?


After the war Germany was always on the side of the Slovenia (one of the first countries, which recognized independant Slovenia), while Soviet union was always against independant Slovenia (Trst crise, informbiro crise,...).

Regards,
Kocjo

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#109

Post by Octavianus » 21 Nov 2003, 00:21

Ave amici,
SAMO 3 MESECE JE BIL V ÈETNIKIH IN SE NATO PRIKLJUÈIL PARTIZANOM. SICER PA,DA NE BO POMOTE - V ÈETNIKE JE BIL PRISILNO MOBILIZIRAN!
Does this mean that he was a true partisan supporter from the beginning or was just "pi*sing against the wind" as they say? I hope I understand your sentence right. Could you please use the letters without hascheks? :roll:
da se NSi in podobne kvislinške združbe nikoli ne bodo zakoreninile v SLOVENSKIH TLEH imajo pa dobre možnosti v rajhu in argentini.
NSi? What does she going to do with that? It is a political party, isn't it? :roll:
And just to utterly disappoint you I've never and will never vote for NSi, never liked
Why? Can someone explain me what is wrong with NSi? My wife's mother voted for them during the last Slovene parliamentary election in 2000. They did quite good as I saw later in newspapers.

never liked Domobrans or any other similar group, my relatives all either supported the partisans or were partisans so don't give me that crap - I just wanted to show you that the partisans were no angels.
Who do you then vote for? For the parties that support the partisan cause? Doesn't this make you a part and not a solution of a problem?
he didnt manage to escape because Partisans were 200 km away
Come on SouthPower! :wink: Where was he then stationed? In Greece?

There were small partisan detachments in Eastern Serbia albeit many destroyed in 1941/1942, when the remnants of the partisan troops moved from Serbia and Montenegro to Bosnia and later Herzegowina (Kupres-Livno-Bugojno) which then became the major theatres of partisan operations in Yugoslavia. It is interestingly that around Kupres there were even some cases of Partisan-Chetnik collaboration against the Ustasha. :idea:
"award" he could get if they catch him (knife into his heart!!).
The partisans were no less brutal or picky when it came to selection of tools for cool-blooded murder of their prisoners. Check a small booklet, written by a former partisan F. Spelic: "Vrnil se bom k ocetu" published by Hermagor Verlag in Celje 1990. On page 35 you will find a description of his presence during one of such brutal executions of three young men from the nerby village.
Now my question is (actually I have no informs. about it but am very interested to know it) why no white guard and Domobrans were in Lower Styria?
Th short answer would be "because there were no partisan formations there"? :)

Take into consideration that until early 1944 with the arival of battle-worn 14th Lower Carniolian Division there were no major partisan unit in Untersteiermark. Sure, there was a small 70 man strong battalion on Bachern plateau, but it was completely wiped out in winter 1942 and his impact was negligeble. Due to his understrength it had to spent much of its time hiding in the forests, thus rarely coming down to the valleys of Celje or on the hilly terrain of Prlekija.

The same or similar events took place in Muravidek. The first small groups of partisans did not infiltrate this province until early 1945 and their impact there was almost nil, so the Hungarians saw no real urgent need for local home defence formations to be formed like in Oberkrain, the Littoral or Krain with Ljubljana where the partisan terror in 1941/42 was really awful . Plus we pought to not forget that there was already an armed formation of Slovenes and ethnic Germans in Untersteiermark assembled in the Wehrmannschaft Regiment(s), which helped the German military and police forces to pacify and garrison the country.
Domobrans and other formations were fighting in name of Nazi forces! First in the resistance were pre-war communists and other activists and members of SKOJ.
&
KPJ (Communist Party of Yugoslavia) were working together with Soviet PJ, right. And Soviet communists were in power more time then NSDAP in Germany, right? And they did more crime in their own country then Nazis in theirs, right?
The problem as I see it is that the partisans too collaborated with the Germans whenever it fit them or the opposite side. It is no secret that Tito's sweetheart was exchanged from Gestapo prison for some German officers after secret negotiations were held between the Germans and the Partisans, so that he could attend the ceremony in Jaijce in 1943 on time.

Recently one of the well-known Slovene professor of history, an author of many articles about the history of Kärnten, but in the same time also an obvious communist sympathizer and a recipient of the Slovenian Golden Badge of Freedom in 2001, admitted that in 1943/44 he was employed by the German Press Office in Ljubljana. Would you label this as some sort of collaboration as well? :roll:

Gratiam,

Octavianus

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K.Kocjancic
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#110

Post by K.Kocjancic » 21 Nov 2003, 01:55

:idea: :idea: :idea:

If YAiH (Yugoslav Army in Homeland) was not obeying orders from Yugoslav govermant in exile, how can you explain British military missions by Mihajlović's HQ? UK was still Allied force and allied with Yugoslavian govermant in exile (king Peter II.).

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Daniel L
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#111

Post by Daniel L » 21 Nov 2003, 10:32

Michael Mills, I'm well aware of the crimes committed by the Ustasha government. I still feel that it's an unfair generalization to call the Croats genocidal. Like you pointed out yourself, not everyone supported the Ustasha.

Best regards/ Daniel

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Nina van M.
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#112

Post by Nina van M. » 21 Nov 2003, 11:47

Just one thing I would like to say, concearning your earlier discussion.
Why is man characterised as a "traitor or collaborator" if he considers one thing from many points of view? I am not on the either side!!! but I cant believe everything because someone said it or we were learning in school... I have no right to judge who was "on the wrong or right side" during the war, because after the battle it seems everything obvious and its easy to be smart. It was not an easy decision, if you had the chance at all. Every single man had his own reason for joining the war. It isnt fair to fallen soldiers, that we are arguing now about their side in war... They are gone and we should respect them. Tragic death of so many people is a BIG warning for all generations living nowadays and we must do everything we can to prevent that this horror will never ever happen again.

Regards, von Kluge

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#113

Post by Mark V. » 21 Nov 2003, 13:51

NSi? What does she going to do with that? It is a political party, isn't it?

I think Southwind (and BTW for non-Slovene speakers Juzni vetric in English simply means Southern breeze) is referring to party's strong connections with the Domobrans (several "veterans" are their active members) - this party is also one of the few (maybe the only one) that supports their struggle against the partisans. IMO this is by far the most conservative political party (maybe ultra-conservative) in Slovenia with a questionable history (how it was created in 2000) and got most of ex-SKD voters.

Sure the partisans cooperated (even the high KPJ officials - Djilas, Popovic, Velebit taking part in it) with Germans when they saw fit but can this really be compared with their domestic opposition.

Anyway maybe it's high time to get back on topic :) .

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K.Kocjancic
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#114

Post by K.Kocjancic » 21 Nov 2003, 14:35

Mark V. wrote:Anyway maybe it's high time to get back on topic :) .
Who's turn is it? :lol:

LP,
Kocjo

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#115

Post by Mark V. » 21 Nov 2003, 16:10

Kocjo wrote:Who's turn is it? :lol:
Don't know, but I'll give it a try :) .

Looks like some elements of 8.Pz.Div. were used in Prekmurje (Murska Sobota-Lendava).

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#116

Post by Octavianus » 22 Nov 2003, 23:14

Ave amici,
is referring to party's strong connections with the Domobrans (several "veterans" are their active members)
Is this bad or good? I really cannot understand why is it to awfully terrible if this party is considered to have strong connections with the former Slovene Domobran Army. Don't ZLSD and LDS have strong connections with the partisans? Doesn't this concern you as well? :roll:
this party is also one of the few (maybe the only one) that supports their struggle against the partisans.
What about Slovenian Democratic Party under Mr. Janez Jansa? I have thought that they are also critical about the war events in Slovenia 1941-1945.
most conservative political party (maybe ultra-conservative)
I have checked on their home page the political programme of NSi and I have to say that I did not find in ti anything ultra-conservative. Care to explain what exactly did you mean by that?

SKD under Alois Peterle was quite popular among Slovenes in Carinthia in 1990a. Without him you certainly wouldn't get the official blessing from Helmuth Kohl and Alois Mock to go on with your independence programme.

I have also briefly met Mr Bajuk eith some of my colleagues while he was still working in Paris (I'm namely a financial consultant). Pri volji bozji nisem mogel zaslediti nic ultra-konservativnega na njem. :roll:
Slovenia with a questionable history (how it was created in 2000)
If I am not mistaken it was the SLS (Slovene People's Party) that has first broken the agreement and as a result of this part of the party canceled their membership in that party and created their own. Takign into consideration that they have won some 10% of support in Slovenia in 2000, I would say that they had an approval by a nice percentage of Slovenian population.
Sure the partisans cooperated (even the high KPJ officials - Djilas, Popovic, Velebit taking part in it) with Germans when they saw fit but can this really be compared with their domestic opposition.
I think it has been already said in this topic that the Village Guards in 1942 were formed as a result of partisan terror in Provincia di Lubiana in 1941-1942. Before first Village Guard in St. Jost was established, some 1,000 Slovenes faced their death by bullets of the communist secret intelligence service in Ljubljana.

Unfortunately the German-partisan collaboration was not just limited to a couple of meetings between Djilas and the Germans in Zagreb. But let this be said to you by Slovene historians and people and not by me.
Looks like some elements of 8.Pz.Div. were used in Prekmurje (Murska Sobota-Lendava).
I have opened a new thread about the April 1941 Campaign in Muravidek (Prekmurje) with some interesting info forwarded by me by my friend. I hope you will find it a welcoming addition to your research.

Gratiam,

Octavianus

Mark V.
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#117

Post by Mark V. » 23 Nov 2003, 12:09

Hello again, Octavianus :) !
First if you have any further questions regarding Slovene political parties then send me a PM :| .
Octavianus wrote:
is referring to party's strong connections with the Domobrans (several "veterans" are their active members)
Is this bad or good? I really cannot understand why is it to awfully terrible if this party is considered to have strong connections with the former Slovene Domobran Army. Don't ZLSD and LDS have strong connections with the partisans? Doesn't this concern you as well? :roll:
Maybe you should quote the whole sentence not just the part of it and then you would see I was explaining Southwind's views :| .
What about Slovenian Democratic Party under Mr. Janez Jansa? I have thought that they are also critical about the war events in Slovenia 1941-1945.
Yes, a thought crossed my mind, but as I remember in the last pre-election debate (2000) - they supported the NOB.
I have checked on their home page the political programme of NSi and I have to say that I did not find in ti anything ultra-conservative. Care to explain what exactly did you mean by that?
I guess you're a conservative then :D , maybe you should check some of their actions in the previous years (prepoved umetne oploditve, uvedba verouka v solah, zaprtje trgovin v nedeljah, ...). Probably ultra-conservative wasn't the right word (but then again I used the word maybe in my quote).

Also have nothing against the two individuals you mentioned :) though I'm somewhat sceptic about Mr.Bajuk's knowledge in economics - I guess you know more about it.
I think it has been already said in this topic that the Village Guards in 1942 were formed as a result of partisan terror in Provincia di Lubiana in 1941-1942. Before first Village Guard in St. Jost was established, some 1,000 Slovenes faced their death by bullets of the communist secret intelligence service in Ljubljana.
In case you haven't noticed I was the one that mentioned their reasons in this thread :) and this just shows why they were forced to "cooperate actively" with the Italians and Germans. Also VOS wasn't created by OF but by the communist party. Is the number 1,000 killed just for Ljubljana?
Unfortunately the German-partisan collaboration was not just limited to a couple of meetings between Djilas and the Germans in Zagreb. But let this be said to you by Slovene historians and people and not by me.
Well, that was just an example (and BTW wasn't it actually Velebit that went to Zagreb) - if you have anything more please post it and don't let as in suspence :) .

Cheers
Marko

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K.Kocjancic
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#118

Post by K.Kocjancic » 24 Nov 2003, 02:05

Well now - Southpower had been banned, so now we need another "volunteer" who would "defend" Partisans and argue against Domobranci.

Anyone? Who will step forward?

Regards,
Kocjo

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Locke
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#119

Post by Locke » 24 Nov 2003, 17:27

Kocjo wrote:Well now - Southpower had been banned, so now we need another "volunteer" who would "defend" Partisans and argue against Domobranci.

Anyone? Who will step forward?

Regards,
Kocjo
Hey, why not? After all, Partisans did some good things for our country. But unfortunately, they spoiled all with revolution and after war killings.
I read a partisan revolutionary song yesterday and one verse was:
....Slovenija svobodna Sovjetska bodeš ti.....(translation: Free Slovenia you will be (a part of) Soviet (Union) :? )

Regards,
Polona

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Christoph Awender
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#120

Post by Christoph Awender » 29 Nov 2003, 04:22

Hello Kocjo and all the others.
Just finished the first "turn" of my work for the daily reports for April 1941.
Mostly sources for the fighting of the 12.Armee but also already something about the 2.Armee.
Still piles of sources to add, proof read etc... Photos, maps etc.. are also not linked yet.

Hope it is interesting.

HEERESLAGE APRIL 1941

\Christoph

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