Axis History Forum

This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations and related topics hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research, Christoph Awender's WW2 day by dayand Christian Ankerstjerne’s Panzerworld.

Skip to content

If you found the forum useful please consider supporting us. You can also support us by buying books through the AHF Bookstore.

War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941

Discussions on WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean.
Hosted by Andy Hill

Postby michael mills on 13 Nov 2003 00:23

Kocjo,

What was the general political attitude of the ethnic Slovenian population at the time of the German invasion in April 1941?

Did they regard themselves as under Serb domination? Did they want to break away from Yugoslavia and become independent (as they did in 1991)? Did they see the invasion of Yugoslavia as an opportunity to gain independence?

Or did they prefer to remain part of Yugoslavia?

Was there a difference in outlook between those Slovenes who were leftist or pro-Communist, and those you have termed "reactionary" (eg Catholics, monarchists)? Were leftist Slovenes more opposed to the German invasion than others?

To what extent did Slovene units resist the German invaders, and to what extent did they just pack up and go home (as the Croat units tended to do)?

How did Slovenes generally regard the Belgrade coup d'etat of 27 March 1941? Did they see it as resistance against increasing German domination, or as a takeover by Serb nationalists?

Finally, how do Slovenes of today generally view the official Titoist history of Yugoslavia during the war? Do they generally agree with it, or oppose it?
michael mills
Banned
Australia
 
Posts: 7574
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Canberra, Australia

Postby Locke on 13 Nov 2003 11:33

michael mills wrote:Did they regard themselves as under Serb domination? Did they want to break away from Yugoslavia and become independent (as they did in 1991)? Did they see the invasion of Yugoslavia as an opportunity to gain independence?

Or did they prefer to remain part of Yugoslavia?




Slovenians were aware of being under Serb domination, but there was no resistance against it. They didn't want to break away, and the invasion wasn't seen as an opportunity for independence. Slovenia wanted to stay a part of Yugoslavia.

michael mills wrote:Was there a difference in outlook between those Slovenes who were leftist or pro-Communist, and those you have termed "reactionary" (eg Catholics, monarchists)? Were leftist Slovenes more opposed to the German invasion than others?



At the beginning all who were against Germans fought with partisans, until the Partisans became communist and started to terrorize the inhabitants of Slovenia (especially in Dolenjska region). This caused "Vaške straže" - Village guard and collaboration with Germans.


michael mills wrote:To what extent did Slovene units resist the German invaders, and to what extent did they just pack up and go home (as the Croat units tended to do)?

Slovenian units fought Germans, but they were in small groups which couldn't cause much damage to the Germans.


michael mills wrote:How did Slovenes generally regard the Belgrade coup d'etat of 27 March 1941? Did they see it as resistance against increasing German domination, or as a takeover by Serb nationalists?



It was seen more as takeover by Serb nationalists because it was diregted more against Regent than against the Germans. Serbs thought that the Regent betrayed Serbian interests.


michael mills wrote:Finally, how do Slovenes of today generally view the official Titoist history of Yugoslavia during the war? Do they generally agree with it, or oppose it?

That is the problem in Slovenia. Some people still agree with Partisan history and they don't recognize after war killings of colaborationists - mainly people who were against communism. So we are somehow split. But things are slowly changing....

regards,
Polona
User avatar
Locke
Member
Slovenia
 
Posts: 792
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 13:29
Location: Radovljica/Ljubljana, Slovenia

Postby K.Kocjancic on 13 Nov 2003 11:37

Thanks Polona for your answer on my behalf! :D

Regards,
Kocjo
User avatar
K.Kocjancic
Member
Slovenia
 
Posts: 5509
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 19:57
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

Postby Locke on 13 Nov 2003 11:49

Well, I forgot to tell that I asked my granpa to make things more clear. He explained what he thought - since he lived during WWII.

Regards,
Polona
User avatar
Locke
Member
Slovenia
 
Posts: 792
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 13:29
Location: Radovljica/Ljubljana, Slovenia

Postby michael mills on 14 Nov 2003 02:43

Thank you for your responses. They make things a lot clearer.

One of the reasons I asked is that here in Australia some time ago, back in the 1970s so far as I can recall, there was a scandal over a person of Slovenian origin who was a member of the Liberal Party (one of the two main parties here, being right-wing conservative) and was standing as a candidate in an election.

It was revealed that during the war, he had been a member of a Slovenian armed force that had collaborated with the German occupiers (I think it may have been the Domobrana referred to by Kocjo). The political opponents of this person (I can no longer remember the name) accused him of being a Nazi collaborator, and therefore by definition a war criminal, guilty of all sorts of atrocities etc etc.

This person said that he had not been so much a collaborator with the German occupiers as an opponent of the Communist partisans, and had joined the Slovenian armed forces in order to defend Ljubljana against the Partisans, who were advancing on the city. The armed force he had belonged to had aligned itself with the Germans since they were the only ally who could protect them against the Partisans.

I was interested in getting some background information that might help explain the true historical background to that scandal.
michael mills
Banned
Australia
 
Posts: 7574
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Canberra, Australia

Postby Locke on 14 Nov 2003 18:18

michael mills wrote:Thank you for your responses. They make things a lot clearer.

One of the reasons I asked is that here in Australia some time ago, back in the 1970s so far as I can recall, there was a scandal over a person of Slovenian origin who was a member of the Liberal Party (one of the two main parties here, being right-wing conservative) and was standing as a candidate in an election.

It was revealed that during the war, he had been a member of a Slovenian armed force that had collaborated with the German occupiers (I think it may have been the Domobrana referred to by Kocjo). The political opponents of this person (I can no longer remember the name) accused him of being a Nazi collaborator, and therefore by definition a war criminal, guilty of all sorts of atrocities etc etc.

This person said that he had not been so much a collaborator with the German occupiers as an opponent of the Communist partisans, and had joined the Slovenian armed forces in order to defend Ljubljana against the Partisans, who were advancing on the city. The armed force he had belonged to had aligned itself with the Germans since they were the only ally who could protect them against the Partisans.

I was interested in getting some background information that might help explain the true historical background to that scandal.


Yes, this was and is a big problem in Slovenia. Partisans comitted warcrimes against the inhabitants, and in order to defend their families some collaborated with Germans. And the bigest tragedy happened after the war when Partisans killed those collaborationists - Domobranci, but also women and children of those and even people who were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Now mass graves are being discovered. I know for a mass grave of serb chetniks, who were also killed by partisans, in my vicinity. But some peple escaped, most of them immigrated to Argentina and some to Australia.

There's a site about it http://www.zaveza.org/

regards,
Polona
User avatar
Locke
Member
Slovenia
 
Posts: 792
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 13:29
Location: Radovljica/Ljubljana, Slovenia

Postby Southpower on 16 Nov 2003 23:24

michael mills wrote:Thank you for your responses. They make things a lot clearer.

One of the reasons I asked is that here in Australia some time ago, back in the 1970s so far as I can recall, there was a scandal over a person of Slovenian origin who was a member of the Liberal Party (one of the two main parties here, being right-wing conservative) and was standing as a candidate in an election.

It was revealed that during the war, he had been a member of a Slovenian armed force that had collaborated with the German occupiers (I think it may have been the Domobrana referred to by Kocjo). The political opponents of this person (I can no longer remember the name) accused him of being a Nazi collaborator, and therefore by definition a war criminal, guilty of all sorts of atrocities etc etc.

This person said that he had not been so much a collaborator with the German occupiers as an opponent of the Communist partisans, and had joined the Slovenian armed forces in order to defend Ljubljana against the Partisans, who were advancing on the city. The armed force he had belonged to had aligned itself with the Germans since they were the only ally who could protect them against the Partisans.

I was interested in getting some background information that might help explain the true historical background to that scandal.

Intersting example with this ex-domobran in Australia. Now what I think about domobrans: Germans used them as an instrument for achieving goals of RSHA. Ones collaborated with Germans because they hated communism so much and others because of fear to be shot or deported. In my view I would rather die than collaborate with a nation wich deported tens of thousands Slovenes and killed thousands of them.
Actually domobrans helped Nazis arresting Jews, Slovenes and also to execute some of them.

Domobrans (white guard) thought that Nazi Germany is going to win the
war and they joined the axis. When WWII ended most of them were shot or sentenced to long imprisonment.

Was Titos socialism worse than Italogerman nazifascism?
I dont think so. If Nazis won WWII our "motherlanguage" would be German, we all would have German Surenames, we would be unmoral hatemachines.

Nowadays only a small minority in Slovenia supports how domobrans treated. They are known as traitors of Slovenia, of Yugoslavia. Though I think that even they fought for some ideals wich no sooner than after WWII (when truth about "endlösung" and KZ was known) were designated as false!
Southpower
Banned
Slovenia
 
Posts: 87
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 11:26
Location: Maribor, Slovenija

Postby K.Kocjancic on 16 Nov 2003 23:39

Southpower wrote:Intersting example with this ex-domobran in Australia. Now what I think about domobrans: Germans used them as an instrument for achieving goals of RSHA.


Are you sure? I don't think so. Tell me then: If Domobranci were firm German allies, why did Germans sent all high Domobranci's officers to Dachau?


Southpower wrote:Actually domobrans helped Nazis arresting Jews, Slovenes and also to execute some of them.


Again are you sure? When Germany invaded Untersteiermark and Oberkrain, there were no Domobranci. In first months of occupation German arrested specially rich Jews and seized their companies.

In SLovenia there wasn't any real Jewish community (as today). I don't know if there were more then 500 of them here.


Southpower wrote:Domobrans (white guard) thought that Nazi Germany is going to win the
war and they joined the axis. When WWII ended most of them were shot or sentenced to long imprisonment.


Domobranci (Slovensko domobranstvo) and White Guard ("Bela Garda") aren't the same thing.

Most of them were shot. Don't know anything about imprisoning them. Some escaped and some under 18 were sentenced to hard labour (and then also a lot of them were shot).

Southpower wrote:Was Titos socialism worse than Italogerman nazifascism?
I dont think so. If Nazis won WWII our "motherlanguage" would be German, we all would have German Surenames, we would be unmoral hatemachines.


I think they were the same. We were always under somebody - but now we live in "freedom".

Remember - Slovenia is more tied to Germany as it was to Yugoslavia.


Southpower wrote:Nowadays only a small minority in Slovenia supports how domobrans treated. They are known as traitors of Slovenia, of Yugoslavia. Though I think that even they fought for some ideals wich no sooner than after WWII (when truth about "endlösung" and KZ was known) were designated as false!


I don't regard them as traitors. For me they were soldiers against communism. I addmit - there was a lot of influence from Church - but a lot of Slovenes were in Russia/Soviet Union as AH POW's in WWI and they saw a lot of things there.

Regards,
Kocjo[/quote]
User avatar
K.Kocjancic
Member
Slovenia
 
Posts: 5509
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 19:57
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

Postby Southpower on 17 Nov 2003 11:25

Are you sure? I don't think so. Tell me then: If Domobranci were firm German allies, why did Germans sent all high Domobranci's officers to Dachau?

Could you post some names of high ranking Domobran officers who were internated by Nazis? I am very interested in that.

Again are you sure? When Germany invaded Untersteiermark and Oberkrain, there were no Domobranci. In first months of occupation German arrested specially rich Jews and seized their companies.
In SLovenia there wasn't any real Jewish community (as today). I don't know if there were more then 500 of them here.

I apologise because I have forgotten to determine exact territory of Domobran activities. I know that in Untersteiermark was no Domobrans. Are you going to say that killing even 1 Jew isnt a crime!

Domobranci (Slovensko domobranstvo) and White Guard ("Bela Garda") aren't the same thing.

Slovensko domobranstvo was developed out of White guard (vaške straže). Today everyone who was Domobran during WWII is called white guard (belogardist). This term is used also by themselves.

Most of them were shot. Don't know anything about imprisoning them. Some escaped and some under 18 were sentenced to hard labour (and then also a lot of them were shot).

They were shot like 1000 of Slovenes including kids, women and old people were tortured, shot, gassed and hanged without trial.

I think they were the same. We were always under somebody - but now we live in "freedom".

We lived thousand years under Austrians (Germanics) and though that some of Slovenians joined to Nazi armed forces. If axis won we would still be under them!

Remember - Slovenia is more tied to Germany as it was to Yugoslavia.

Are we Slavic or Germanic? Dont try to confuse pollitical situation with real peoples feelings about it. Are you trying to say that you would rather live under Nazi Germany than Socialist (it was no communism!) Yugoslavia?

I don't regard them as traitors. For me they were soldiers against communism. I addmit - there was a lot of influence from Church - but a lot of Slovenes were in Russia/Soviet Union as AH POW's in WWI and they saw a lot of things there.

I agree with you that they fought against communism but they have chosen wrong partners (killers and torturers of millions innocent).

When Domobrans sweared on 21th of April 1944 to fight united with SS forces and German police against communism(Bežigrad stadium), dr. Alojzij Kuhar said: "Why are you swearing to your own hanger?" (Zakaj prisegate zvestobo lastnemu krvniku?). Domobrans were under direct jurisdiction of SS general-lieutnant Rösener.


Cheers,

Southpower.
Southpower
Banned
Slovenia
 
Posts: 87
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 11:26
Location: Maribor, Slovenija

Postby Southpower on 17 Nov 2003 16:46

At the moment I am reading a monography about Domobrans war crimes and execution methods (Silvo Grgiè: Atrocities of occupants collaborators, 1995) and I feel the need for "illustrating" with that Domobrans
"anticommunist" army. I am sorry that I have no scanner to share this very "graphic" picts with you and thats the reason why I am going to quote some interesting articles:

1. common informs on Domobrans:
Slovenian Domobrans were formed on 24th of September 1943 by SS generallieutnant Erwin Rösener and some Slovenian pronazi politicians. Around 75% POWs was executed by Domobrans. They thought that German army and police are treating members of partisan groups too mild and therefor they formed terrorist organisation so called "Black hand" (Èrna roka) wich killed partisans and their symphatizers. They threw pamphlets with black hand-print in front of houses to frighten people wich sympathised with OF (Liberation front). When they "operated" (read: butchered) they usually were dressed in American or Partisan uniforms.


2. some details about crimes (only comments below images in that book):
- 30th of December 1943 -> Partisans Franc Janc and Alojz Hacin were hanged in Novo mesto by Domobrans
- 4th of May 1943 -> chief attorney of SNOS (Slovenian liberation council) Dr. Vito Kraigher was bruttaly tortured and murdered at Turjak by Domobrans (along with 28 more victims)
- 14th of November -> Stane Kveder, member of VDV (Army of state security) was tortured and killed in Doblièe at Èrnomelj by Domobrans. They crushed his skull.
- 14th of november 1944 -> VDV major Jože Mirtiè was wounded near Koprivnik. Domobrans first tortured him and cut a partisan star in his face. Image is very shocking because his face is totally crushed. After that they killed him.



Even after termless German capitulation, Domobrans stayed with some SS members in ditches around Ljubljana and resisted even after that.


Kocjo I have also some data on afterwar executions. Not every Domobran was executed. Look at Bajuk, Bernik, Cukjati & Co. They are still alive.
Southpower
Banned
Slovenia
 
Posts: 87
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 11:26
Location: Maribor, Slovenija

Postby Locke on 17 Nov 2003 16:57

Southpower, not many Domobranci survived. But most of them who survived immigrated to South America or Australia, and now they come back. And Bajuk wasn't a Domobranec himself, maybe his parent's were, but he's too young. And children can't be judged for the sins of their parents.

Regards,
Polona
User avatar
Locke
Member
Slovenia
 
Posts: 792
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 13:29
Location: Radovljica/Ljubljana, Slovenia

Postby Southpower on 17 Nov 2003 17:25

Locke wrote:Southpower, not many Domobranci survived. But most of them who survived immigrated to South America or Australia, and now they come back. And Bajuk wasn't a Domobranec himself, maybe his parent's were, but he's too young. And children can't be judged for the sins of their parents.

Regards,
Polona

I you are no war crimes denialist then you should concede atrocities Domobrans have made. You are accusing partisans for killing without trials? The same thing you accusing partisans, Domobrans were practicing whole time. What happened after war was a uncontrolled reaction of angry and frustrated partisans who have fought for freedom and for their own people! When partisans suffered under nazifascist and home collaborationists oppression, Domobrans organised glamorous amusements, partys and meetings with Nazi officials.
Have they deserved anything better than execution?
Southpower
Banned
Slovenia
 
Posts: 87
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 11:26
Location: Maribor, Slovenija

Postby K.Kocjancic on 17 Nov 2003 17:34

Southpower wrote:What happened after war was a uncontrolled reaction of angry and frustrated partisans who have fought for freedom and for their own people!


Uncontrolled? Don't make me :lol: . What about organization of trains, trucks to murder sites, tying their hands with wire, closed areas,.... Pretty uncontrolled! :x


I'm not saying that Domobranci didn't commit any war-crimes but 75% is a too big number.
User avatar
K.Kocjancic
Member
Slovenia
 
Posts: 5509
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 19:57
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

Postby Southpower on 17 Nov 2003 18:03

In comparison to what Nazis and their vassals Domobrans have commited, afterwar mass executions of Domobrans are like a drop of water in comparisson to sea! Collaborators deserved it.
Poglejta si prisego komu so prisegli domobranci zvestobo!!!!!!!!! Would you be happy today to live in Hilers "free" Europe? Be happy that communist saved our little nations. With collaborant like Domobrans we would be today all Germans!
Southpower
Banned
Slovenia
 
Posts: 87
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 11:26
Location: Maribor, Slovenija

Postby K.Kocjancic on 17 Nov 2003 18:24

Don't look global - look just to Slovenia - who do you think killed more people - Partisans or Domobranci (not Germans); include also after-war executions!
User avatar
K.Kocjancic
Member
Slovenia
 
Posts: 5509
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 19:57
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

PreviousNext

Return to WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests