War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941

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K.Kocjancic
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#76

Post by K.Kocjancic » 19 Nov 2003, 02:21

Mark V. wrote:
Kocjo wrote:
Mark V. wrote:I meant Nešović, Prunk: 20.stoletje.
From me on to today is Repe's work for 8. grade, right? :?

Was Prunk in your times? :P :lol: :wink: :)
8O Things change so fast 8O
To fast!

Now every year is a new text-book (my text-books are no longer good for my sister, who is 5 years junger). 8O

Southpower
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#77

Post by Southpower » 19 Nov 2003, 03:28

That are my personal views and at the same time answer to some of your questions.

Why were no Domobrans in Primorska? Because people knew what means to live under fascism and they were teached about what is the point of it. They made personal experiences with fascism from WWI to WWII. Thats also the reason why large number of emigrants are there (in Argentina because of fascism). That what happened in other parts of Slovenia was simple a result of having no experiences with Nazifascism.

You said something about Domobrans werent collaborationists. The answer is very very simple. The definition of what is collaboration you can find in Slovenian enciklopedy:
"In the first line this means freewilling active cooperating with occupants. Their cooperation is not neccessary for survival of the nation in war circumstances and it is harmfull for the nation in long-term and in short-term from view of national honor."
Simple minded person can conclude that along this definition Domobrans were collaborants.

You were talking about some "Free" Europe and "Free" Slovenia (in context that Domobrans fought for freedom) free of communism. Lets take a look on this. Hitler talked about some "free" Nazi Europe and also did Mussolini. Gen. Leon Rupnik talked something about kinda ..... United Domobran Army but with wich, like Rupnik said, "we could become equal nation among Hitlers "family of European nations". This was in no way any part of reality and the truth. Domobrans Army had nothing along with Wermacht and other intendance-political structures of 3rd Reich.
To harden my allegation I am going to quote some points out of a letter sent by Izidor Cankar to dr. Rožman: "Slovenian Domobrans movement is such a national and religious damage wich is ever hard going to make good. How could Slovenian officers ever swear to Hitler, to someone who jeopardized everything and said that he is going to root us out and also the christian religion? The goal of Slovenian nation is to unite after 1000 years of national dying. Domobrans became a dam to this goal as they started to serve Hitler against allies. In the Primorska Partisans are going to stand unite with allies and where are going to be Domobrans? Some of them will run in different ways when Germans will be gone, ones will be killed if they continue with their battle. For what reason? Who is going to be responsible for this disaster? Who is going to be responsible for damage caused by their treason? Who is going to correct that what they are going to pull down into the yawn?"
That prooves again that Domobrans knew what is going to happen to them after WWII.

And now as you said that Partisans werent respecting in that time legal government to abstinate of all actions against occupants (still from this letter): "Tomorrow I am going to London and as you will hear, I will back up from Yugoslav government. Not because I dont agree with the policy of it but because these men in Rome (Italians) stated that they cant back up from pact signed with Hitler. You should follow goals of Yug. government: it should go to the end wich is close! Main goal is to build a policy in cooperation vith govts. of USA, Russia and Britain!.
This Cankars statement prooves That Domobrans were ones not respecting directives of Yug. govt.

Always are the winners ones who decide what is right and what is wrong. If Nazifascism won the WWII this story would be a little different:
people would be accussed of treason, collaborating with communism, with Soviet Union or something like that and finally executed.

Cheers,

Southpower!


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#78

Post by Southpower » 19 Nov 2003, 03:34

Kocjo wrote:I think the same situation was in Slovenia/Yugoslavia - Novak/Mihajloviæ were recognized from Yugoslav goverment in exile as Commander of Yugoslav army in homeland for Slovenia/Minister of Defence and CiC of Yugoslav army in homeland.

But in 1944 Šubašiæ (IIRC :? ) and Tito signed agreement and from then on Èetniki/Blue Guard/Yugoslav army in homeland were regarded as national traitors - why? Because they were still fighting the same enemy, but politicians (they should be shot :x ) switched sides.

Regards,
Kocjo
Chetniks were regarded as national traitors because they cooperated with Nazzis like Domobrans in fighting against NOV, POJ and CK KPJ (main engines of resistance in Yugoslavia)!

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#79

Post by michael mills » 19 Nov 2003, 03:48

The historical fact is that Tito also collaborated with the Germans to a certain extent.

He made an offer to local German commanders to cease fighting against them, if they would stop invading his territory in Bosnia.

Tito's motivation is quite clear. He was not really interested in driving out the German and Italian occupiers and "liberating" his country. His main aim was to establish a territory and an armed force, and keep both intact until the end of the war (it was quite clear that Germany would be eventually defeated, given the power of the forces ranged against it), at which time he would use his armed force to seize control of the whole country. During the war itself, he only wanted to fight against his Yugoslav rivals, to prevent them establishing a power base for the post-war struggle for power.

The only reason that the cease-fire proposed by Tito did not go ahead was because Hitler forbade any negotiations with "bandits". However, there was an exchange of prisoners.

It is true that a large number of Yugoslavs joined Tito's partisans. The vast majority of them were ethnic Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia who were fleeing the violent ethnic cleansing being perpetrated by the Ustasha regime in Croatia (including Bosnia). The motivation of those ethnic Serbs was not primarily to fight the German and Italian occupiers, but rather to save themselves from genocidal Croats.

A smaller proportion of the Partisans consisted of Bosnian Croats and Muslims who were seeking protection from the retaliatory raids of the Serb nationalist Chetniks. But more Croats and Muslims allied themselves with the Germans and Italians (for example, the recently deceased former President of Bosnia, Alia Izetbegovic, had been a member of the SS-Handschar Division in his late teens).

Very few of the partisans were committed Communists or "anti-fascists". Probably only the leaders fitted into that category of ideologically committed activist. Whether an individual joined the partisans, the Chetniks, the Ustasha, the Domobrans, or the SS, or the Nedic forces in Serbia, was often a matter of pure change, being at a particular place at a particular time, and a necessity to go with whoever had the power.

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#80

Post by Southpower » 19 Nov 2003, 08:16

Your sources, please Mr. mills. I am realy interested in new data because I obviously left out this. :lol:

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#81

Post by K.Kocjancic » 19 Nov 2003, 10:31

Southpower wrote:Why were no Domobrans in Primorska?
Are you sure about this? :lol:

Have you ever heard about SNVZ - Slovene National-Security-Allience?

This were "Primorski Domobranci".

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#82

Post by Southpower » 19 Nov 2003, 10:46

"Brave" Domobrans swearing to fight together with A. Hitler, his SS divisions against communism. True "heroes".
Image
April 1944

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#83

Post by K.Kocjancic » 19 Nov 2003, 10:46

Southpower wrote:You said something about Domobrans werent collaborationists. The answer is very very simple. The definition of what is collaboration you can find in Slovenian enciklopedy:
"In the first line this means freewilling active cooperating with occupants. Their cooperation is not neccessary for survival of the nation in war circumstances and it is harmfull for the nation in long-term and in short-term from view of national honor."
Simple minded person can conclude that along this definition Domobrans were collaborants.
Yes, simple minded. But here on this forum we tend to hard proof and not just post-war communist literature. :wink:
Southpower wrote: United Domobran Army but with wich, like Rupnik said, "we could become equal nation among Hitlers "family of European nations". This was in no way any part of reality and the truth. Domobrans Army had nothing along with Wermacht and other intendance-political structures of 3rd Reich.
Again, in the last days of Slovenia (before it was "liberated" by JA and PO) there was a thing called "Slovenska narodna vojska" - Slovene national army - which was only Slovene led army in Slovenia (as you probably know Slovene Partisans at that time lost their Slovene commander(s) and were under Serbian command).
Southpower wrote:Always are the winners ones who decide what is right and what is wrong. If Nazifascism won the WWII this story would be a little different:
people would be accussed of treason, collaborating with communism, with Soviet Union or something like that and finally executed.
That's right. Winners. Would be OK to Partisans write good about Domobranci. Because (second) Yugoslavia was formed under hostile activity, all the time of its existence they need enemy - here you go - Domobranci and other Reactionary forces.


Regards,
Kocjo

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#84

Post by K.Kocjancic » 19 Nov 2003, 10:47

BTW. Do you really thing, that ALL of Domobranci pleadge to Hitler?

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#85

Post by K.Kocjancic » 19 Nov 2003, 10:50

Read these books:
Zamolčani grobovi in njihove žrtve (zbornik)
Ušli so smrti (zbornik)
Različna dela Borisa Mlakarja (on je glavni trenutni pisec o domobranstvu).
Kos, S. Stalinistična revolucija na Slovenskem 1941-1945
Trilogija: Vetrinje-Teharje-Rog (IIRC)

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#86

Post by Southpower » 19 Nov 2003, 10:51

Kocjo wrote:
Are you sure about this? :lol:

Have you ever heard about SNVZ - Slovene National-Security-Allience?

This were "Primorski Domobranci".
I am actually stunned that you have only one exception from my whole post. I can simply conclude that:
1. you agree with what I wrote
OR
2. you have no contra arguments.


Cheers,

Southpower!

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#87

Post by Southpower » 19 Nov 2003, 10:54

Kocjo wrote:Read these books:
Zamolèani grobovi in njihove žrtve (zbornik)
Ušli so smrti (zbornik)
Razlièna dela Borisa Mlakarja (on je glavni trenutni pisec o domobranstvu).
Kos, S. Stalinistièna revolucija na Slovenskem 1941-1945
Trilogija: Vetrinje-Teharje-Rog (IIRC)
As I know is that Domobran literature. Right? :lol:

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#88

Post by K.Kocjancic » 19 Nov 2003, 10:59

Boris Mlakar has been working on this from 80' on (also in past regime).

If you call that Domobranska literature, OK - I call it another side of the story.

Have to go. Be back in 3 hours.

Regards,
Kocjo

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#89

Post by Southpower » 19 Nov 2003, 11:05

Yes, simple minded. But here on this forum we tend to hard proof and not just post-war communist literature. :wink:
If Slovenian enciklopedy printed in 2002 is "post-war communist" literature then I agree with you. :D
Again, in the last days of Slovenia (before it was "liberated" by JA and PO) there was a thing called "Slovenska narodna vojska" - Slovene national army - which was only Slovene led army in Slovenia (as you probably know Slovene Partisans at that time lost their Slovene commander(s) and were under Serbian command).
"Liberated"? Huh.....you are a hard one. You obviously agree only with Hitlers concept of "freedom". Nothing wrong with Serbian commanders. Thouhg its better than to be under Röseners command. Right or are you again "Liebhaber" von SS? :D
That's right. Winners. Would be OK to Partisans write good about Domobranci. Because (second) Yugoslavia was formed under hostile activity, all the time of its existence they need enemy - here you go - Domobranci and other Reactionary forces.
Do you mean like today when NATO is searching its point for its beeing? No Yug. was formed because something connected this people:
1. geographical determination
2. all are Slavs
3. resisted to Nazifascism to prevent Italogermanisation.


Cheers,

Southpwr!

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#90

Post by K.Kocjancic » 19 Nov 2003, 16:32

Southpower wrote:I am actually stunned that you have only one exception from my whole post. I can simply conclude that:
1. you agree with what I wrote
OR
2. you have no contra arguments.
Wrong! :lol: :P
I just haven't had time to go over and ....

==========================================================================================
Southpower wrote: The goal of Slovenian nation is to unite after 1000 years of national dying.
So you're saying that Partisans united Slovene nation? I don't see Trst or Gorica on map of Slovenia? :wink: Neither Gosposvetsko polje. :wink: :wink: All these areas were "liberated" during WWII but we don't have them. Why? Because Tito traded these areas for return of Domobranci.
Southpower wrote:To harden my allegation I am going to quote some points out of a letter sent by Izidor Cankar to dr. Rožman: "Slovenian Domobrans movement is such a national and religious damage wich is ever hard going to make good. How could Slovenian officers ever swear to Hitler, to someone who jeopardized everything and said that he is going to root us out and also the christian religion? The goal of Slovenian nation is to unite after 1000 years of national dying. Domobrans became a dam to this goal as they started to serve Hitler against allies. In the Primorska Partisans are going to stand unite with allies and where are going to be Domobrans? Some of them will run in different ways when Germans will be gone, ones will be killed if they continue with their battle. For what reason? Who is going to be responsible for this disaster? Who is going to be responsible for damage caused by their treason? Who is going to correct that what they are going to pull down into the yawn?"
That prooves again that Domobrans knew what is going to happen to them after WWII.

And now as you said that Partisans werent respecting in that time legal government to abstinate of all actions against occupants (still from this letter): "Tomorrow I am going to London and as you will hear, I will back up from Yugoslav government. Not because I dont agree with the policy of it but because these men in Rome (Italians) stated that they cant back up from pact signed with Hitler. You should follow goals of Yug. government: it should go to the end wich is close! Main goal is to build a policy in cooperation vith govts. of USA, Russia and Britain!.
This Cankars statement prooves That Domobrans were ones not respecting directives of Yug. govt.
Could you post a source of this?
Southpower wrote:Main goal is to build a policy in cooperation vith govts. of USA, Russia and Britain!.
Strange. And I thought that OF came from Antiimperialistic front, which was formed against US and UK? :?

Southpower wrote:Always are the winners ones who decide what is right and what is wrong. If Nazifascism won the WWII this story would be a little different:
people would be accussed of treason, collaborating with communism, with Soviet Union or something like that and finally executed.
BTW. If you know your history, you would know that happend in Yugo. Ever hard of Informbiro crise? Goli otok?



Regards,
Kocjo

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