Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

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xristar
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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#31

Post by xristar » 08 Apr 2013, 12:53

GregSingh wrote:There were several independent capitulations of Greek forces.
On the 9th of April Greek Second Army capitulated unconditionally, the Germans released all Greek soldiers after disarming them, so the number of prisoners of war was not established.
On the 19th Greek First Army in Albania (Epirus) surrendered to Waffen SS units, soldiers were not treated as prisoners of war and were allowed to go home.
That made Mussolini angry and another surrender which included Italians were signed on the 23rd.
Various sources provide that some 250-280 thousand Greek prisoners were taken up to end of April, but they were shortly released. I read somewhere that Hitler himself stated in public that he did not fight against Greece, but was liberating that country from British occupation. Hence light treatment of Greek prisoners.
Not sure what happened to Greeks which surrendered to Italians.
Here is the good basic study of the campaign:
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/balkan/intro.htm
There was no such thing as "First" and "Second" Army, those were names given by the German intelligence. The "German campaign in the Balkans" is based on German records, is inaccurate in many places and with a German bias.

It is true that the Germans were instructed to treat the Greeks well and release the priosners, and they did, and it was extremely important in breaking the Greek fighting morale. It was a peculiar and dangerous decision from the German command but it paid off. When the Greek armies in West Macedonia and Epirus were trying to withdraw to the south in a quite bad and deteriorating operational situation, they came in contact with men from the East Macedonia Army Section ("2nd Army") who had been released by the Germans and were going home. This was the most important factor that led to disintergration of units, particularly those with men originating from areas behind the German lines.

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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#32

Post by Kelvin » 08 Apr 2013, 16:24

Why German treated Greek so well ? about 340,000 Yugoslav were captured by German and not to be released, And if German did that, was it brought hard feeling to Mussolini as the latter was beaten badly by Greek in Oct 1940 ?


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Urmel
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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#33

Post by Urmel » 08 Apr 2013, 22:22

I wouldn't suggest to go and ask that question to a Greek who went through occupation. I think you may find that they didn't feel that well treated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Greece)
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

GregSingh
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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#34

Post by GregSingh » 09 Apr 2013, 00:50

Nobody is suggesting that civilian population was well treated anywhere during II WW, just see civilian casualties, specially in Eastern Europe. Numbers are in millions.
What we are saying here is the fact that Greek soldiers were released and not taken prisoners, probably first time this happened since the start of the war. This was only a gesture of course.

Hitler himself. It was his personal intervention. Why? Who knows, perhaps we had a sentiment toward Greek ancient civilization and culture at that moment.
And Mussolini? He was furious, he even ordered attacks on Greek forces in Albania after they signed capitulation with Germans. Perhaps that's why most of the Greece was later handed over to Italian administration.

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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#35

Post by KACKO » 09 Apr 2013, 16:46

Kelvin wrote:Why German treated Greek so well ? about 340,000 Yugoslav were captured by German and not to be released, And if German did that, was it brought hard feeling to Mussolini as the latter was beaten badly by Greek in Oct 1940 ?
Not entirely true. For example Slovak officials negotiated some release of Yugoslavian soldiers of Slovak ethnicity.

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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#36

Post by Kelvin » 11 Apr 2013, 17:48

I don't know why Yugoslav and Greek forces were routed so quickly as they had an advantage in terrain. The terrain of the Balkan is unsuitable for tank operations , so their defensive position was much more superior to those of the Polish forces in 1939. And in Oct 1940, repluse of Italian attack proved that the Greek army was experienced military forces, somewhat like Finnish resistance against Russia. Although the Greek army was no match for the battle-hardened German veteran forces, she at least might hold the German for a while. Also she had the support of 6th Australian infantry division and 2nd New Zealander infantry division and RAF. The latter could provide adequate air cover for the Greek troops.

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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#37

Post by xristar » 11 Apr 2013, 20:34

Kelvin wrote:I don't know why Yugoslav and Greek forces were routed so quickly as they had an advantage in terrain. The terrain of the Balkan is unsuitable for tank operations , so their defensive position was much more superior to those of the Polish forces in 1939.
The Balkans have plenty of room for armoured units to move. Look at the map were Belgrade is located.
Moreover, speaking for the Greek army at least, there was such a lack of anti tank weapons that even an armoured car company was too much to handle. In reality, the Balkan terrain from a military point of view is characterised by alternating plains and mountains. For the Germans, as soon as they opened a pass, an armoured column would exploit through it and roll into the following plain.
The German used their Panzers a bit too much though. When faced by an adequately equipped opponent such as the Commonwealth forces on Olympus, the Panzers took heavy and unnecessary losses.

The Yugoslav army was half mobilised and mostly not deployed. I don't have a detailed description of the Yugoslav side, but it is clear from the German side's description that they encountered resistance only at the border by the border battalions, and after eliminating it they advanced deep before meeting new resistance, in uncoordinated fashion. The Yugoslavs seem to have attempted to from a cohesive line but to no avail. It is worth noting that the German advance in Yuogslavia and in Greece was based on motorized detachments advancing rapidly in depth along highways, and not actually eliminating the forces they met. The Germans were aware that they were bypassing large masses of Yugoslav forces, which if made an aggressive return they would potentially cause great trouble to the Germans.

The Greek army was mobilised and deployed but its bulk was in Albania, and arguably the deployment in two lines (Metaxas' line and the Mt. Vermio line) did not help. Still, like in the case of Yugoslavia, the Germans bypasssed rather than destroyed the Greek forces.

In any case, the quick German success in Yugoslav "Macedonia" killed the morale of all Allied forces. The separation of the Yugoslav army from the Greco-British, achieved practically already since 8 (or 9? irrelevant) April, meant the end for the Yugoslav effort as the principal mission had been lost. I I recall correctly, the German attack against central and northern Yugoslavia opened on 8 April, rather than 6, thus when the fate of the Yugoslav army had been sealed. The British were never serious about fighting and they were always ready to bail out, while the Greek command found out it had to make a deep retreat over the mountains very quickly which potentially would, and eventually did, cause the disintergration of the Greek forces.
Kelvin wrote:And in Oct 1940, repluse of Italian attack proved that the Greek army was experienced military forces, somewhat like Finnish resistance against Russia. Although the Greek army was no match for the battle-hardened German veteran forces, she at least might hold the German for a while. Also she had the support of 6th Australian infantry division and 2nd New Zealander infantry division and RAF. The latter could provide adequate air cover for the Greek troops.
The Greek army scored a few victories against the Germans. As far as I am concerned it was definitely "a match" for the Germans, although admittedly the Germans were an excellent army. Given better air coverage and organic anti tank weapons, the Greek forces would have stopped the Germans in meeting engagements line those of 13-15 Arpil. The Greek forces actually stopped if not defeated in some cases the Germans attacking on Metaxas line. In the sector of the 72nd German division the Greeks destroyed a German battlegroup, took several hundred prisoners and forced the division to the defensive. German sources admit that if the Greek reserves were more readily available the position of the 72nd division would be difficult. The German 125th regiment was mauled, although a battalion that ahd infiltrated (I think the II/125) held its ground with remarkabe tenacity and with invaluable assistance from the Stukas.
The Commonwealth forces performed poorly despite being well equipped. Also, cooperation between the Greek and British forces was poor and frustrating.


It is my personal belief from having examined the campaign from all sides, that while there were the necessary forces available to hold the Germans, the problems of poor morale on the Greek side, poor combat performance in the mountanous terrain from the British forces, and overall lack of coordination, precluded a stabilisation.

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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#38

Post by Kelvin » 11 Apr 2013, 20:47

In accordance with your description, some Greek units' fighting skill was quite good, they can beat German 72.infanterie division, one of 1st wave division. I think if British can supply adequate equipment to Greek army, the latter will contribute to allied war effort.

Did Greek 19th motorized division performed good ? Some data tell me that she were equipped with 24 x captured Italian L3 tankettes and some British Bren carriers.

The major weakness was Greek air power, only 41 combat aircraft were operational.

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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#39

Post by xristar » 11 Apr 2013, 21:45

Kelvin wrote:In accordance with your description, some Greek units' fighting skill was quite good, they can beat German 72.infanterie division, one of 1st wave division. I think if British can supply adequate equipment to Greek army, the latter will contribute to allied war effort.

Did Greek 19th motorized division performed good ? Some data tell me that she were equipped with 24 x captured Italian L3 tankettes and some British Bren carriers.

The major weakness was Greek air power, only 41 combat aircraft were operational.
The Greek army had a european style training sytem for officers and soliders, which should, theoretically, produce an army as good as any. It did in general, although the Greek officers did not show the same reflexes as the German. Greek infantry was a mixed bag, while the German was generally very good. Greek artillery was as good as the German and with supposedly better tactics (a remark many French-trained armies made). You also have to take in account the equipment. A German battalion had as much firepower as a Greek regiment. The Greek army also needed antitank weapons of all sorts.

The 19th division was hardly a division. According to a British source (writing from memory) it had 2,500 men and was quite untrained. Which seems to me as an accurate descritpion as it was formed only in March, mostly from the motorised cavalry regiment (1,000 men?) that existed already. It's combat potential was negligible. Each regiment had supposedly one tank and one motorised battalion. In reality the motorised battalions were one company and one machinegun platoon each, with some 180 men total. The tank battalions had some 30 tankettes (Bren carriers mostly, L3 also).
The division was destroyed in a valiant but completely hopeless attempt to cover a 30km sector from the attack of the 2nd Panzerdivision, on 8 April. In reality the Germans broke through the "line", the bulk of the Panzerdivision drove in a single column directly to Thessaloniki almost 80km in a day, while various detachments eliminated the isolated islands of Greek resistance. At the end of the day, the Greek forces retreated to the east into the densely forested Krousia mountain, still with some cohesion, but the surrender agreement was signed on 9 April.

The lack of adequate air cover was a significant factor in the operations, that also cost the Greeks and the British many lives. AFAIK, most of the British casualties were result of Luftwaffe strikes.

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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#40

Post by GregSingh » 12 Apr 2013, 03:09

Hey xristar,
Slightly off the topic, but I wonder if during your research, have you ever come across pictures of German troops near Lake Kastoria in April 1941?
I know PK 690 took many nice pictures there (some of them in color), as the lake looked beautifully in the spring. Many years ago I've seen one color photo of PAK unit, probably from LSSAH Aufklärungs-Abt, on the road on the side of the lake.
Thanks,
Greg

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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#41

Post by xristar » 12 Apr 2013, 12:03

GregSingh wrote:Hey xristar,
Slightly off the topic, but I wonder if during your research, have you ever come across pictures of German troops near Lake Kastoria in April 1941?
I know PK 690 took many nice pictures there (some of them in color), as the lake looked beautifully in the spring. Many years ago I've seen one color photo of PAK unit, probably from LSSAH Aufklärungs-Abt, on the road on the side of the lake.
Thanks,
Greg
GregSingh, I am a casual amateur "researcher". I read mostly secondary sources, and archives only when I can find them for free. I don't know where to look for photos.
But yes, I recall to have seen a few German photos from the Kastoria lake area, including possibly the one you mention (ie Pak units on the side of the lake), although I'm not sure it was in color.

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Re: Greek Army vs German Army - Operation Marita

#42

Post by Kelvin » 15 Aug 2016, 22:23

The decisive battle in Greek campaign perhaps was in Albania. German panzer troop cut off LOC of Greek Army of 14 divisions between Albania and Home. Being cut off, those 14 divisions were forced to surrender.

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