Why did the Allies choose Sicily over Sardinia?

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Germanicus Nero
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Re: Why did the Allies choose Sicily over Sardinia?

#46

Post by Germanicus Nero » 28 Oct 2014, 15:55

To my mind there are a few reasons for invading Sicily over Sardinia....

First and foremost, the intelligence co-operation was much, much better in Sicily. The Allies were talking to Mafiosi from mainland U.S.A. and gaining much in the way of real intelligence about Axis dispositions in Sicily. In Sardinia, this sort of help was totally absent.

Second, Sicily was much closer. Providing air support to Patton and montogomery was vital to their success. Sardinia was just too far away for this. The Airborne component of Operation 'Husky' was also to be considered. The closer to thei objective, the better to fly them in reserves or stores. As it was, 'Husky's' airborne forces had a complete and utter nightmare of a time, shot at by their own invasion fleet, jumping over water, or landing virtually on top of the German Paratroopers at Primsole Bridge.

Three, Sardinia and corsica were French territories. They were not much in the way of Axis bases or staging points, and hardly any of the locals were serving in uniform, so it didn't make much sense to invade when sicily was ripe and begging to be liberated.

The Athenian expedition to Syracuse by Alcibiades was no good reason not to go there. Patton would have studied and mentioned it with the idea that Thukyidades might have given him some ancient insight into local conditions, water sources, or the mood of the Sicilian peasantry. Patton was a a voracious reader of the classics, all with one eye on what he could glean fro it to use in his own operations. He once took a motor tour of Normandy to "study the road net" and familiairize himself with it's layout. The stated reason was that another war was sure to come, and this region was where he felt a possible landing may have to take place.

Patton was prescient like that, and his hard work paid off in 1944.

As it did in Sicily

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Why did the Allies choose Sicily over Sardinia?

#47

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 29 Oct 2014, 05:05

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Aber
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Re: Why did the Allies choose Sicily over Sardinia?

#48

Post by Aber » 29 Oct 2014, 19:28

But you learn new things like Sardinia was French and flat... :P

Germanicus Nero
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Re: Why did the Allies choose Sicily over Sardinia?

#49

Post by Germanicus Nero » 29 Oct 2014, 23:34

yes oops...

Sardinia was French, oops.

I meant to say Sardinia was strategically non-viable, but it came out as French.

Sort of means the same thing, in hindsight :)

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Re: Why did the Allies choose Sicily over Sardinia?

#50

Post by Banzai » 08 Dec 2014, 23:21

Because they knew that if Sicily was captured the Germans would abandon Sardinia without a fight. The reverse would not have happened. Recall that there was a major deception operation conducted to make Hitler believe the Allied attack would come against Greece and the Balkans ("Operation Barclay") and Sardinia ("Operation Mincemeat"). Both deception operations were successful far beyond the Allied planners wildest dreams.

Ropey
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Re: Why did the Allies choose Sicily over Sardinia?

#51

Post by Ropey » 16 Mar 2018, 12:01

Sorry to resurrect this dead thread, but how much of a consideration for Allied planners was the threat of a (final?) Regia Nautico sortie? This would presumably be more likely the closer to Genoa/La Spezia that an invasion occurred.

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Re: Why did the Allies choose Sicily over Sardinia?

#52

Post by LColombo » 16 Mar 2018, 18:42

Ropey wrote:Sorry to resurrect this dead thread, but how much of a consideration for Allied planners was the threat of a (final?) Regia Nautico sortie? This would presumably be more likely the closer to Genoa/La Spezia that an invasion occurred.
By "Regia Nautico" you mean Regia Marina, right?

I do not know how much it factored in the Allied plans, but here are some data about the Italian Navy strength at the time.

In July 1943 the Regia Marina could count on the following forces:

Battleships: six, three modern (Roma, Littorio, Vittorio Veneto) and three rebuilt (Duilio, Doria, Cesare). Of these, however, Roma was under repair following bomb damage suffered in June 1943; she would only return to service mid-August. So, the number of actually serviceable battleships was five; two in La Spezia (the two other Littorios), two in Taranto (Duilio and Doria), one in Pola (Cesare). Vittorio Veneto had also been damaged by air raids in June, but I'm not sure whether she was still under repair at the time of the landing. Cesare was being used as a training ship with reduced crew and was completely unready to be used in battle, and I think Duilio and Doria also had reduced crews.

Aircraft carriers: none

Heavy cruisers: none (only two afloat, Gorizia and Bolzano, both badly damaged and still waiting for repairs).

Light cruisers: eight (Cadorna and Pompeo Magno in Taranto; Duca d’Aosta, Eugenio di Savoia, Duca degli Abruzzi, Garibaldi, Montecuccoli, Scipione Africano between Genoa and La Spezia) plus Attilio Regolo that was under repair after having been torpedoed in November 1942 (repairs not completed until early September 1943).

Destroyers: about thirty overall, but only half of them were ready to put to sea, the others being under repair or long maintenance. As some of the serviceable ones were serving in the Aegean or Adriatic sea (and were pretty old on top of that, no longer adequate for fleet service), the battlefleet could count on a total of eleven destroyers at the time of the invasion of Sicily.

Torpedo boats and destroyer escorts: 26 serviceable plus more or less an equal number under repair or long maintenance.

The ships based in Taranto had no air cover at all, the ones based in La Spezia could have received some air cover but I am not sure about its extent.


The Allied fleet supporting the landings consisted of:

Battleships: six

Aircraft carriers: two fleet carriers, plus five escort carriers

Cruisers: fifteen

Destroyers: 129

So the Allied invasion fleet in itself was more that the entire Regia Marina could put to sea in that moment (or anywhere in the near future).

It was estimated that the main battle force, based in La Spezia, would need no less than 25 hours to reach the waters off Sicily. So, it would not be possible to achieve surprise.

Had the fleet sailed, Allied aircraft would have likely decimated it while en route to Sicily, then the final battle would have taken place in a time and place of the Allies’ choice. Most likely at night, since the Allies knew that the Italian big ships were basically helpless at night and would once more take advantage of that. The Italian fleet would have likely been wiped out without many losses on the Allied side.

As for submarines and motor torpedo boats, there were about thirty serviceable submarines and seventy MAS and motor torpedo boats (the Allied invasion fleet included 26 submarines and over 200 MTBs and MGBs). These, unliked the battle fleet, were used against Allied shipping during the campaign; but the reasult were meagre - only one cruiser damaged (HMS Cleopatra) and a motor gunboat sunk (MGB 641) for the loss of five submarines sunk, one captured, two badly damaged, and one motor torpedo boat sunk.

Ropey
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Re: Why did the Allies choose Sicily over Sardinia?

#53

Post by Ropey » 16 Mar 2018, 20:46

[quote="LColombo"]
By "Regia Nautico" you mean Regia Marina, right?
[/quote]

Oops, yes of course. Brain fart. :oops:


I guess a Yamato-like gesture was not really in the Italian character, unlike the Japanese.

OK, we can rule it out even for Sardnia/Corsica as per the OP, as no doubt could the planners (other than ensure they had the forces in place).

Thanks for the info.

Perry

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