Did Mayan/Aztec encounter Native Americans?
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Did Mayan/Aztec encounter Native Americans?
I've always wondered if the Mayans and Aztecs ever had any encounters or border disputes with the Native American tribes. Does anyone on this forum have any knowledge on this question? If so, information would be much appreciated.
mayans lived south of mexico, aztecs middle...
native americans had contacts with semi-nomadic tribes from the north of the country,
to name a couple: yaquis, and tarahuamaras, both tribes still have strong presence on the countryside
more about it: http://www.native-languages.org/mexico.htm
best regards
Xavier
Der Autodidakt
native americans had contacts with semi-nomadic tribes from the north of the country,
to name a couple: yaquis, and tarahuamaras, both tribes still have strong presence on the countryside
more about it: http://www.native-languages.org/mexico.htm
best regards
Xavier
Der Autodidakt
That's what I was thinking. I'm wondering if Sturmtruppen is meaning any contact with tribes outside of what is now Mexico. If this is what you're looking for, I doubt it very seriously. Remember until the Spanish came, no horses in North or South America. Contact would be limited by how far you cared to walk.maxxx wrote:hm lets see...mayan, atztecs...arent they native americans themself?
just pushing the PC debate a bit further
maxxx
(born in a time where "red indian" was not considered unrespectful)
Within the area of lower 48 states, I do know that archeologists have found objects in Native America sites made of material that could only have come from hundreds of miles away. So, Native Americans did have a trade network so contact between different tribes at a distant is concievable.revans618 wrote:If this is what you're looking for, I doubt it very seriously. Remember until the Spanish came, no horses in North or South America. Contact would be limited by how far you cared to walk.
Penn44
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That's true, but I still doubt the Aztecs had any contact with say the Cheyenne. They might have had a few Cheyenne artifacts and vice versa but these would have been traded for from tribes inbetween the two of them. I can't see an Aztec wandering into Texas or Oklahoma. The same for the northern tribes wandering down to what is now Mexico City. Trade to trade to trade to trade without really knowing where the item came from originally is how I see this happening. Could be wrong though. It's been known to occur.Penn44 wrote:Within the area of lower 48 states, I do know that archeologists have found objects in Native America sites made of material that could only have come from hundreds of miles away. So, Native Americans did have a trade network so contact between different tribes at a distant is concievable.revans618 wrote:If this is what you're looking for, I doubt it very seriously. Remember until the Spanish came, no horses in North or South America. Contact would be limited by how far you cared to walk.
Penn44
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I am doing this from rote memory but i thought I read somewhere that the Apache of New Mexico and the Comanche of South western Texas more than likely had some contact with the Aztecs. Further, I believe I also read that the Aztecs had migrated to their location from the North. The oldest group in the area was the Anastazi (sp.) and they disappeared altogether after reached a drought and starvation situation in their areas of civilization.
As has been pointed out, the Mayans and Aztecs were Native Americans.
Generally speaking, it is my impression (meaning I can't point to any specific reference, but I know nothing to the contrary) that the Mayan complex was too far south to have much influence with tribes north of the Rio Grande. They never really got much north of the Mexican state of Chiapas.
It was reported (Bernal Diaz's Conquest of New Spain) that there was a bison in a zoo in Mexico City IIRC; this would indicate at least secondary contact between the Aztecs and tribes of the extreme southern plains. Aztecs also raided fairly far, and they may have encountered various tribes dwelling to the north of their main territory. I've heard stories from older Tarahumara tribesmen that seem to indicate contact between their ancestors and the Aztecs.
Parrot feathers (and remains of actual birds, possibly indicating a captive breeding population) have been found in some Pueblo sites. These may have passed through several owners in reaching the Pueblos, but had to have originated farther south. The ball fields mentioned by Robb are at Wupatki and Casa Grande (among other sites), in Arizona, but this does not indicate contact. (If you Google "Casa Grande" or "Wupatki," and "ball;" you should turn something up.) The fields seem similar, but we don't know what was actually done on them--they could have been the Hohokam equivalent of a ballroom. They do date from a time roughly parallel to the Aztecs (900-1350 AD or so).
We know trade was fairly extensive across the North American continent; shells from the Florida coast have been found in the Dakotas, for example. The parrot feathers, and the "ball fields," may have come from similar sources. They could also have been spread by the Aztec traders (pochteca), who were known to range fairly widely (possibly as far as the turquoise mines in New Mexico and even Colorado, if the stories are to be believed). Another source could have been through the Pueblo tribes themselves; that culture extended into Mexico.
Keep in mind that tribal locations (and even what constituted a "tribe") have always been subject to change. Direct Cheyenne/Aztec contact was unlikely, but only because at the time of the Aztec ascendency, the Cheyenne weren't yet the Cheyenne, still existing as several sedentary groups near the western edge of the Great Lakes. The Comanche were still part of the Shoshone in Wyoming. We think of the Apache as having been a tribe of Arizona and New Mexico, but during the Aztec period (roughly 1200-1600 AD) the Apache were as far north as Nebraska, and south into Mexico.
The southwest and Mexico has been occupied since at least 8,000 BC; there's no clear-cut line between between the Archaic/Anasazi/Early Pueblo/Pueblo. At some point these groups almost certainly encountered the ancestral Aztec; they may even have been the ancestral Aztec. As best anyone knows, the ancestors of the Aztec moved from northern Mexico to central Mexico about 1500-1600 years ago.
As far as I can recall, the Aztec and Mayans weren't really seafaring tribes, they didn't really have the tech to take a boat very far along the coast. Building and using ships was one of the many things about the Spanish that amazed the Aztecs. Heyerdahl made a different trip; he took a south American designed boat from Peru to Polynesia.
Sorry to babble so much; its 330 AM and I just can't sleep.
Generally speaking, it is my impression (meaning I can't point to any specific reference, but I know nothing to the contrary) that the Mayan complex was too far south to have much influence with tribes north of the Rio Grande. They never really got much north of the Mexican state of Chiapas.
It was reported (Bernal Diaz's Conquest of New Spain) that there was a bison in a zoo in Mexico City IIRC; this would indicate at least secondary contact between the Aztecs and tribes of the extreme southern plains. Aztecs also raided fairly far, and they may have encountered various tribes dwelling to the north of their main territory. I've heard stories from older Tarahumara tribesmen that seem to indicate contact between their ancestors and the Aztecs.
Parrot feathers (and remains of actual birds, possibly indicating a captive breeding population) have been found in some Pueblo sites. These may have passed through several owners in reaching the Pueblos, but had to have originated farther south. The ball fields mentioned by Robb are at Wupatki and Casa Grande (among other sites), in Arizona, but this does not indicate contact. (If you Google "Casa Grande" or "Wupatki," and "ball;" you should turn something up.) The fields seem similar, but we don't know what was actually done on them--they could have been the Hohokam equivalent of a ballroom. They do date from a time roughly parallel to the Aztecs (900-1350 AD or so).
We know trade was fairly extensive across the North American continent; shells from the Florida coast have been found in the Dakotas, for example. The parrot feathers, and the "ball fields," may have come from similar sources. They could also have been spread by the Aztec traders (pochteca), who were known to range fairly widely (possibly as far as the turquoise mines in New Mexico and even Colorado, if the stories are to be believed). Another source could have been through the Pueblo tribes themselves; that culture extended into Mexico.
Keep in mind that tribal locations (and even what constituted a "tribe") have always been subject to change. Direct Cheyenne/Aztec contact was unlikely, but only because at the time of the Aztec ascendency, the Cheyenne weren't yet the Cheyenne, still existing as several sedentary groups near the western edge of the Great Lakes. The Comanche were still part of the Shoshone in Wyoming. We think of the Apache as having been a tribe of Arizona and New Mexico, but during the Aztec period (roughly 1200-1600 AD) the Apache were as far north as Nebraska, and south into Mexico.
The southwest and Mexico has been occupied since at least 8,000 BC; there's no clear-cut line between between the Archaic/Anasazi/Early Pueblo/Pueblo. At some point these groups almost certainly encountered the ancestral Aztec; they may even have been the ancestral Aztec. As best anyone knows, the ancestors of the Aztec moved from northern Mexico to central Mexico about 1500-1600 years ago.
As far as I can recall, the Aztec and Mayans weren't really seafaring tribes, they didn't really have the tech to take a boat very far along the coast. Building and using ships was one of the many things about the Spanish that amazed the Aztecs. Heyerdahl made a different trip; he took a south American designed boat from Peru to Polynesia.
Sorry to babble so much; its 330 AM and I just can't sleep.
Kon Tiki was a sailing raft. Pretty much at the mursy of currents and wind. For seaborne communication lyou are looking at canoes for the most part. Some of the NW tribes did make them big enough to hunt whales from.South wrote:Good morning all,
No possibility of seaborne lines of communication in re the coast dwellers?
I thought explorer/historian Thor Heyerdahl (spell?) [Kon Tiki guy] proved it was realistic enough.
Warm regards,
Bob
Thinking back on Kon Tiki I believe Heyerdahls thesis was that the rafts were used along the Pacific coast but were capable of an East to West crossing of the Pacific if for instance they were blown of shore by a storm. It's been way too long since I read Kon Tiki so this may be way off base. Note that he proved a one way crossing was possible not that it was necessarily done or if done frequent. He also proved it was dangerous.
If I remember rightly, and its about 35 years since I read Kon-Tiki, Heyerdahl's theory was that the inhabitants of Polymesia may have arrived from South America aboard balsa rafts. He was able to sail one from South America to Polynesia (can't remember which island group he landed on). A later expedition actually went all the way to Australia (la Balsa?) and the raft can be seen in the Ballina New South Wales museum (approx 200 km south of Brisbane), been past the museum many times, must go into it next time and have a look.
Heyerdahl also sailed a raft across the Atlantic (called the Ra I think) to South America to prove that the journey to South America by the Egyptians was possible. I don't know what the latest thoughts are on migration to Polnesia from South America, if someone has some information perhaps they can post it. However, we are getting a bit a bit off topic here.
regards to all Robb
Heyerdahl also sailed a raft across the Atlantic (called the Ra I think) to South America to prove that the journey to South America by the Egyptians was possible. I don't know what the latest thoughts are on migration to Polnesia from South America, if someone has some information perhaps they can post it. However, we are getting a bit a bit off topic here.
regards to all Robb
The Kon Tiki broke up on a reef. I think one associated with the Great Barrier reef. Fortunately it was also associate with an island. The Ra was based on an Egyptian designed papyrus boat. It came apart in the mid Atlantic. Apparently there was a rope that appeared to be useless so they left it off. Turned out it held the boat together. The Ra II completed the voyage.
South America/Polynesia
Apparently there is some solid evidence suggesting a pre-Columbian connection between South America and Polynesia. Recent DNA studies of chicken bones excavated in Chile showed the chickens were related to chickens from Polynesia. The site carbon-dated to a point prior to the arrival of Europeans. There is a brief article at http://www.archaeology.org/0801/topten/chicken.html
Re: Did Mayan/Aztec encounter Native Americans?
Very interesting topic, i have made some researches and I think that given the geographical distance between the heartlands of the Mayan and Aztec civilizations and the regions inhabited by many of the Native American tribes, direct encounters or border disputes were unlikely. The Aztecs did reach into some parts of the Southwestern United States, but by and large, their interactions with the Northern tribes were minimal.