Colonel! I beg you, save the honor of France!

[Liluh]

Nice info.

Except the battles, the whole rest of this part of history was pretty sad for the Poles at that time.

Poles were the largest force in Napoleons army (if I remember well, around 150.000 men) except French, of course. Such large force of foreign nation was dangerous for him, so he cut Polish forces into 3 parts. One was sent to crush enemies in Spain, another to do the same with uprising on Santo Domingo island, and the remaining last stayed with Napoleon. Those who went to cease uprising never returned, or just a small % of them did. They didn`t really like to fight someone who struggles for the independence like they did, most of them stayed on the island and had families etc.

As for the final part, Napoleons marshal. gen. J. Poniatowski ended like this (and like the rest of Poles):

In the campaign of 1813 he guarded the passes of the Bohemian mountains and defended the left bank of the Elbe. As a reward for his brilliant services at the three days' battle of Leipzig he was made a marshal of France and entrusted with the honorable but dangerous duty of covering the retreat of the army. Poniatowski heroically defended Leipzig, losing half his corps in the attempt, finally falling back slowly upon the bridge over the Elster which the French in the general confusion blew up before he reached it. Contesting every step with the overwhelming forces of the pursuers, he refused to surrender, and covered with wounds plunged into the river, where he died fighting to the last.

Actually, he just fell off the horse in Elster, and even though it wasn`t deep there, he most likely drowned. He had to loose conciousness due to wounds.

[D. von Staberg]

Liluh,
There is at best limited evidence to support the claims you make in your post.
First the events you discribe happende at very diffrent times, the Santo Domingo expidition took place in 1802 at which time Poland was still occupied by Prussia, Russia and Austria. The Grand Duchy of Warsaw was not froemd by Napoleon until 1807.
The Polish forces served in Spain after 1808 while Polish forces other than the Imperial Guard regiment did not serve with Napoleon until 1812.

The Polish forces in service with Napoleon consisted of 3 parts,
1:The Imperial Guard regiment of lancers and the short lived Polish Grenadiers. 1000-2000 men

2:The Polish Legions of the French and Italian armes, units of the regular French and North Italian armies made up of Poles in exile. Known by many names such as the Polish demi-brigades, Legion du Nord, Legion Polacko-Italienne and finaly from 1808 the Vistula Legion. 1000-12000 men dependign on the year, from 1808 the Vistla Legion had 5000-8000 men in its ranks

3: The army of the Grand Duchy of Warsaw. Established in 1807 by Napoleon it would reach a peak strength of around 75000 men in 1812

There is very little evidence that Napoleon felt threatend by the size of the Polish units or because they were foreign. They were all establish and raised on his orders if he had wanted them smalle rhe would simply have forbiden the increase in size of the Vistula Legion and the Grad Duchy's army. Napoleon instead always tried to increase the size of the Polish units. He even paid for several regiments of the Grand Duchy's army with french taxes in order to have a larger Polish army when the Poles coudl not raise the money themselves.

The Poles did provide Napoleon with largest allied force from any single country and enjoyed a trust which the other allies did not recive. The Poles were alone in having their army commanded by a member of their own nation, the various german armeis from Bavaria, Wurtemberg, Saxony and so on either served as part of a French corps or had their corps commanded by French generals and marshalls.

The Santo Domingo expidition did include two units made up of Poles, the French armys 113th&114th Demi-brigades of some 6000 men. Now these units probably were sent because they were not trustworthy, however they were considered unreliable because of their support to Napoleons republican enemies, not because they were Poles. Other entirely french units were also sent to Santo Domingo because of they were unreliable.
About 500 Poles returned to France when the French withdrew, more returned by deserting from the Brittish regiment into which captive Poles had been forced by brutal English treatment which violtaet all the terms of the Polish soldiers surrender. The regiment was the 5th batalion/
60th Royal Armerican regiment of foot which was later sent to Spain where manyof the Poles escaped to join the French army again.

Were the Poles used by Napoleon? Of course! But no mor ethan he used his other subjects and allies and the Poles in the Grand Duchy almost certainly enjoyed a greater degree of freedom and independence than when occupied by Prussia, Russia or Austria.
Di dNapoleon intend to create and entirely independent Poland with in its former borders? Probably not, he considered the political cost of that to be to high compared with what he would have gained from the support of a reestablished Polish kingdom. He wanted peace with Russian and Austria (on his terms of course), not more wars.

Regards
Daniel

[Liluh]

Liluh,
There is at best limited evidence to support the claims you make in your post.
First the events you discribe happende at very diffrent times, the Santo Domingo expidition took place in 1802 at which time Poland was still occupied by Prussia, Russia and Austria. The Grand Duchy of Warsaw was not froemd by Napoleon until 1807.
The Polish forces served in Spain after 1808 while Polish forces other than the Imperial Guard regiment did not serve with Napoleon until 1812.

Regards
Daniel

Daniel, you may be right at some extent, my post was rather chaotic and not accurate, still:

1) Polish Legion in Italy has been created in the January of 1797 under command of gen. J.H. Dabrowski, in support and based in Lombardia (later Cyzalpia). It counted around 7000 men, those who left Poland after partitions, those who were forced to serve in Austrian army, but were made POW by French, and finally those who deserted from Austrian army (later also Russian etc.).

2) That`s also the time when J. Wybicki created song which is now Polish national theme. Its words mention Bonaparte, Polish Legion in Italy, and how they will follow him all the way to Poland to free it. These were Polish expectations although Napoleon never gave a clear promise it will happen (and it was obvious since he wasn`t a dictator yet).

3) In 1799 Legion had severe looses in Italy campaing against Russia-Austrian coalition. Since the situation was pretty bad also for France, directoriat finally agreed to incorporate Poles into French army. Reinforced Legion raised to 9000 men. Napoleon took the full power overthrowing the last republican government and soon overthrow coalition forces from Italy. Legion ("Naddunajska Legia") under gen. Kniaziewicz marched to the Vienna, but had been halted. Bonaparte needed peace, and he agreed to not support Poles in their claims for freedom, in exchange Austria agreed to not to support French royalists (treaty in Luneville 1801).

4) Legions grew uneasy, soldiers didn`t like the idea that they are being send to Italy to protect French interests then, as they wanted to march forward to Poland. Gen. Kniaziewicz dismissed himself, togheter with several officers, gen. Dabrowski was considering a complete departure of the Legion from French command. He wanted to go to Greece to help Greeks fight for freedom. Becouse of that uneasyness, Bonaparte decided to partition Legion. Large part, 6000 men from the Legion had been sent to San Domingo (Haiti) from where only 300 came back, rest died of diseases, harsh climate, or stayed there to live. Around 5000 men stayed with gen. Dabrowski in Lombardia (and Neapol, under Bonaparte`s brother) and took part in the campaings of that time.

5) In 1806 remains of the Legion took part if battles against Prussia and were later transfered to the forces of Grand Duchy of Warsaw under gen. J. Poniatowski (later French marshall). In 10 years time, around 35.000 men served in the Legion in total. Big setback was the change in Kosciuszko`s support. He lost his trust to Bonaparte, he didn`t accept the fact that Napoleon overthrow republic authorities, while the new and fresh democratic ideals were what he fought for. That had to lead to some troubles as Legion considered Kosciuszko its mentor and leader.

For final word. Sure, after 1806, or even a year or two earlier, Napoleon had every reason to make Polish forces bigger, they were finally marching towards Poland and he could be sure they`ll serve him eagerly and faithfully, as the never written promise and the main reason why Poles joined France, was the attempt to free their country and reestabilish it and it finally became true. But before that, in 1802, Bonaparte couldn`t let a mutiny to outbreak in his ranks. Poles didn`t want to wait, so he had to force them, but not by somekind of threat, that would surely lead to worse situation, he just gave them a job and to weaken their temper, spreaded around the world. Of course, I aswell doubt that Bonaparte ever wanted Kingdom of Poland as a fully independent country. In this case, Duchy was the golden middle as it gave Poles a bit of independence, but didn`t yet make them free of his fluency. In 1812 Duchy parliment decided to raise army of 100.000 men for the so called "second polish war" against Russia. I have no idea how many did they send in the end, most likely the number was pretty close to the estimated, but in any case 70% of them died in that campaing, especially that Polish forces moved in the rear protecting the retreat. If you ask me, Poniatowski shouldn`t follow Napoleon to the Moscow, with well trained and equipped men, army of 100.000 togheter with well experienced officers, Duchy could defend itself for years.

Yes, it was somehow naive to believe in Bonaparte intentions of freedom for everyone, but he was treated as a someone close to God, and not only by Poles.

Best regards,
Filip

[szopen]

BTW, there were question of hussars and uhlans etymology.

Uhlans is from Mongolian uhlan, of course, but cavalry of that type was initially created in Poland in XVII century and only then mimicked by neighbours.

Hussars if of Hungarian origin. In Poland, hussars developed into best military frmation of all times (they had not faced a defeat in the course of hundred years), medium cavalry, while in Austria they developed into light cavalry.

[lukeo]

Many claims concerning Polish Hussars are myth. The Husaria, the heavy cavalry was already archaic in mid 17th century. Most Polish victories of that time were archieved thanks to well trained and equiped artillery and infantry. The victory of Vienna was not a succes of Husaria, but infantry, that pushed the Turks to their camp, allowing the cavalry to charge.

In fact, Polish hussars faced multiple defeats. Most of them just because it was an archaic unit, that couldn't deal with good commanded infantry. Remember the Cossak wars? The defeats of Zolte Wody or Korsun for example.

King John Sobieski, the commander of battle of Vienna said, that husars are "cementary army" ("wojsko cmentarne"). Because they looked great on celebrations and events like festivals, burials, church holidays.

And in fact, the husaria NEVER fought with wings on their back. The wings were elements of PARADE uniform from early 18th century.

[Musashi]

Zolte Wody

Its hard to win if you are besieged and outnumbered 10 to 1. Cavalry is not suitable to defensive operations.

[lukeo]

Of course, but Szopen said, that husaria was never defeated. It's a myth. As well as the case with those gigantic and heavy wings.
Polish army was reformed by king Wladyslaw IV (1632-48 ). Since that, the core of Polish army was infantry and artillery. During the reforms the king (who is often viewed as irresponsible and hot-headed) the king faced large opposition from conservative commanders.

Cavalry was used only in offensive. But Poles often dismounted their cavalrymen. For example in battle of Chocim 1672.

[Musashi]

For example in battle of Chocim 1672.

10-11 XI 1673

[lukeo]

For example in battle of Chocim 1672.

10-11 XI 1673

You are right:) My finger slipped from the "3" key

[szopen]

Of course, but Szopen said, that husaria was never defeated. It's a myth. .

Nope. I haven't said that. I've said, that they were not defeated for hundred years (until war with Sweden in 1620s).

[lukeo]

So you mean since 1520? I must disappoint you. The Polish hussars of 16th century were totally different unit to those from 17th century.
We cannot compare them and cannot say about any countinuity between them.

The 16th century hussars were light, fast and unarmoured cavalry.


While 17th century hussars were heavy armoured crushing cavalry. Their apear in Polih army since the reign of king Stefan I Batory.



Note - this picture repeats the myth. The hussars DID NOT fight with wings.

[edited by moderator]
Sources:
http://www.jest.art.pl
http://www.geocities.com/rik_fox/husaria/

[szopen]

Lukeo, i already know that. So, the hussar formation went through evolution, so what, everyone knows that.

BTW, they were kind a light cavalry (by western standards, of course - calling them heavy cavalry is an exxageration) for quite a long time. (to avoid misunderstanding, i will repeat that in Polish: byli jakby lekka kawaleria wedlug zachodnich standardow). They armour was much lighter than say curaissiers.

The point is still valid, that until Gniew they had not suffered any defeat.

[lukeo]

Then what about for example battle of Seret River (1538), battle of Kies-Wenden (in Inflants) in 1570, battle of Bialy Kamien-Weisstein in 1620?

Polish army of 16th century was among most efective and poweful in Europe. But let's not tell about invincibility.

[szopen]

Then what about for example battle of Seret River (1538), battle of Kies-Wenden (in Inflants) in 1570, battle of Bialy Kamien-Weisstein in 1620?

Polish army of 16th century was among most efective and poweful in Europe. But let's not tell about invincibility.

Lukeo, I didn't know about any hussaria units fighting in Kies-Wenden :-O If you would like to elaborate, i would be grateful

Seret River frankly i've never heard about, and i am not sure about hussaria in Bialy Kamien either.. But even if, then it would mean that they suffered first defeat in 1620

[Vulkan]

Yes, disrupting British infantry squares by cavalry happened only once during the Napoleonic Was and it was then. So it was really outstanding.
Chris

If I recollect correctly, two battallions of Kings German Legion 69th regiment were wipped out by french cavalry at Quatre Bras 1815.