1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

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doogal
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1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#1

Post by doogal » 06 Dec 2011, 00:54

Could anyone remedy my lack of knowledge concerning sources which are accurate and a fair reflection of the 1866 Austro-Prussian conflict.? Im reading Gordon Alexander Craigs the battle of Konnigratz: but i am unsure as to its scholarly authenticity of (as truly reflecting) the situation leading up to the 2nd July 1866:
Also would anyone have any comments on the responsibility of the Austrian commander (Benedek) for the advance which allowed the Prussian 2nd Army to hit its exposed flank:
On page XII (Craig) talks of Benedeks " willfull subordinates" who exposed the "austrian right flank to attack" he also talks of Benedeks not having (due to the aformentioned action) the "freedom to develop his original battle plan"Gordon A Craig (1964) Prussias victory over Austria.
I have read in another publication and in Wikipedia that benedek failed to take the initiative prior to the arrival of the Prussian 2nd Army: in that he refused to advance and to undertake a cavalry charge when he was faced with the Army of the Elbe and the 1st Army which he seriously outnumbered:
I am writing an Essay on the "prussian/german way of war" and am looking at the mode and method of the chief of staff strategy and whether Austrain mistakes had more to do with the defeat than seems to be credited..???
Any input would be appreciated.

Doogal :milwink:

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#2

Post by David Thompson » 09 Dec 2011, 06:53

Moltke's projects for the campaign of 1866 against Austria (1907)
http://www.archive.org/details/moltkesp ... 00britgoog
The battlefields of 1866 (1866)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y3QFAA ... r_versions
The campaign in Bohemia, 1866 (1907)
http://www.archive.org/details/campaigninbohem00glgoog
The campaign of 1866 in Germany (1872)
http://books.google.com/books?id=TZEzAA ... q=Abtsdorf
The campaign of Königgrätz, a study of the Austro-Prussian conflict in the light of the American Civil War (1899)
http://www.archive.org/details/campaignofkonig00wagn
The seven weeks' war. its antecedents and its incidents (1871)
http://www.archive.org/details/sevenwee ... 00hozirich
Sadowa (1907)
http://books.google.com/books?id=BkEIAQ ... milarbooks

For other works on the Austro-Prussian War, free and online, see:
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query ... 2C+1866%22


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doogal
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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#3

Post by doogal » 10 Dec 2011, 13:00

Many thanks:-

:P

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#4

Post by doogal » 11 Dec 2011, 18:31

After further study i have found a range of sources which include :The history of the late war in Germany: Henry Lloyd 1720 -178? : Is this the soldier Henry Lloyd who is credited with antecedence for many of Clausewitz`s ideas ??
My main question (and i dont mean to ask so many) is how to attend to the material in such a way as to find the objective reality: Are there authoritys on this period which is roughly 1750 - 1866 which scholars consider to be sound and accurate ??
Apart from my own library and what i can harvest from online i dont have access(in that i cant sit down and grill them) to contemporary scholars, even my degree tutors are not fully accessible due to it being an Open University degree.(my own time around work)
The fact is that without primary sources i have to regurgitate compiled histories in a synthetic manner which i find particularly obtuse???????? also the history departments of the universities around where i live wont entertain helping me due to the fact i not enrolled with there institutions???
Im trying to draw comparisons between the Prussian and Austrian and minor German states "way of war" in light of there amalgamation in ww1 & ww2:- so much attention has been given to a prussian/german way of war that we seem to have minimised the input into all of these European conflicts of the minor German states.
" "
Doogal
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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#5

Post by Galahad » 21 Dec 2011, 22:11

First, you might look at this review of Craig's book and see if your readings give you the same picture he has.
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=9278

Second, despite all the hoorah-ing over Prussian command superiority in this war and in the Franco-Prussian War, Moltke's dispositions allowed both Benedek and the French several opportunities to defeat Moltke in detail (most notably at Gravelotte-St. Privat), aided by the repeated insubordination of Moltke's subordinate commanders, and the repeated failure of Moltke's cavalry in the field of reconnaissance.

He got away with it because his opposition helped him immensely--despite the evidence of the American Civil War, none of Moltke's opponents made much use of field fortifications, for instance.

One can't help wondering what would have happened in the same situations if Moltke had faced Lee and Stuart, or Grant and Sheridan. By 1864, digging in at the end of a day's march was S.O.P. in both the Union and Confederate armies, and none of the above generals was slow to attack when the opportunity presented itself. Given the opportunities the Prussians repeatedly presented.....

Moltke's system of command was excellent, but during his wars it certainly didn't operate as intended, and as it operated in WW I and WW II. Given opposition that functioned in a militarily effective way, the history of Europe could have been very different.

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#6

Post by doogal » 22 Dec 2011, 00:10

Thats seems fair quite accurate comment:-

The seven Weeks war by the light of General Feld Marschall von Blumenthal:- points also to a disagreement in the manner of the Prussians Approach to Sadowa. he says " today i was with General von Moltke who informed that the whole army would move to the left" he continues "which looks more as if we were to stand on the defensive as otherwise" "this continuing changing of plans is frightfull and will emperil everything"(evening of June 1st)(page 5)
He continues on June 17th "let us have done with this halting (offensive - defensive) policy"(page 6)
Frederick Engels a supposed Military Authority in his own right is said to have commented that the Prussian dispositions were as such to suggets that a member of the Royal family must be in Charge.

(Was not Moltkes strategy linked to his knowledge that the Austrians would struggle to concentrate at speed and so this would allow a dispersed form of manouever? owing to the railheads built to accomodate the collection areas of troops and a strategy which could accomodate offense-defense)-(was not this the essence of his battlefield tactics, to fight offensively from a strong defensive position???)

On page 31 of Wagners the campaign of Konnigratz Wagner looks at the Prussian dispositions and points out that the Austrians could operate on Interior Lines effectively only up to the point when the Prussian armies became close enough to mutually support each other,(this is i assume is where many will say that Benedek had the oppurtunity to concentrate on the 1st or 2nd army in turn)

(Are we not being unfair to Benedek who had only commanded an army corps in the field who said that he would attack but was fighting in a country he had little experience??) had he not fought mainly in Italy with the cavalry and had he not refused the command in favour of the Archduke who ended up commanding in italy????

Wagner points to the following as qualifying Moltkes strategy: The Prussian frontier required a disipation for succesfull movement to protect Silesia and Lusitia from Austrian invasion, this meant that a forward concentration in Austrian territory was required?? Due to routes a single road would have been unsuitable: he goes on to give other reasons why the Prussian concentrations should have been seperate but these may very well be retrospective.!!!

Wagners book is in the light of the American civil war and he is in agreeent with your own comments on field fortifications and entrenchment once off the march,he also says that the actual method of fighting in Europe was still reminiscent of an older age in the approach to tactical solutions once combat was joined.

Did the Prussians and Austrians have representatives on either side in the Civil war?? if yes would not the German General Staff not have taken any lessons or where they to "old world" to take any advice from the new world?????

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#7

Post by Galahad » 22 Dec 2011, 04:45

Just time for a short reply, but the Prussians, at least, did have at least one semi-official observer with the Union Army of the Potomac.....Ferdinand, Graf von Zeppelin, who took his first ride into the air in America. He was impressed and sent home reports on what he observed, which same were evidently filed in the Prussian Army's equivalent of File 13. If Moltke read them, he was evidently not impressed enough to act on what he read. He supposedly commented "I have no time to waste in studying the struggles of two armed mobs". In the first year or so of the war, both armies and commanders were close to mobs. But by 1864 both were the most effective fighting forces on the planet, commanded by skillful commanders and equipped with the latest technologies.

It would probably be rewarding to read this Master's thesis on exactly the subject of what the Prussians learned from the ACW. You could then compare what info the Prussians had with the way they made war. http://www.stormingmedia.us/30/3024/A302483.html

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#8

Post by Glenn2438 » 23 Dec 2011, 09:44

but the Prussians, at least, did have at least one semi-official observer
Not exactly Prussian. Oberlieutenant Graf v. Zeppelin at the time of his service in the USA was on leave from the Württemberg Army. And of course, the Kingdom of Württemberg was on the Austrian side during the war!

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#9

Post by Galahad » 23 Dec 2011, 09:51

"Oops". Well, obviously the Austrians never read his reports either. <g>

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#10

Post by doogal » 02 Jan 2012, 13:59

Galahad thankyou:

Do i assume that Graf vonZeppelin would go on to produce the dirigible/airship of the same name for Imperial Germany??
Glen 2438 thanks for pointing out that he was wurtemberger, does this mean that there was a Prussian observer in America?? Can we assume that if von Moltke said "i have no time to waste studying the struggles of two armed mobs"(please provide reference if you can Galahad) that he was unaware of the changing nature of the conditions of combat and Strategy in America???. His dismissal of its importance is troubling ??? i thought that Prussia developed looser dispersed infantry formations due to the US Civil War ???? The proto Industrial war waged by Lincoln in the last 2 years with Grant Sherman and Sheridan is only seen and understood in retrospect and i assume that contemporary figures were unaware of its importance in its window on the future!!!!!.(lots of assuming)
Considering that Moltke commanded in a country using conscription, his attitude towards the US seems like that of the English (those yankee bumpkins) attitude?????. Surely as a soldier he would have been interested in the Strategies of the US commanders: Lee was no rabble rouser nor Jackson nor Stuart, Sherman and Grant, even Mcclellan had lessons to teach!!!
I am suprised that the traditions of Scharnhorst were not applied ......?????

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#11

Post by Glenn2438 » 04 Jan 2012, 09:33

doogal,

Premier-Lieutenant Justus Scheibert, a Prussian engineer officer observed the Confederate Army in 1863.

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Glenn

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#12

Post by Galahad » 05 Jan 2012, 02:02

The Graf von Zeppelin mentioned is indeed the one who developed the dirigible. He spent time in the US as an unofficial observer during the Civil War. As far as is known, no German state sent an official observer, though reports were made on the happenings by several such as Lt. Schiebert.

For the Moltke quote, I've never found any especial attribution. It's one of those sayings that is all over the place in one form or another. Likewise the purported response to it by General Sherman, that Moltke was an ass. Then there is this, Sheridan's comments on the Franco Prussian War: "In 1870, President Grant, at Sheridan's request, sent him to observe and report on the Franco-Prussian War. As a guest of the King of Prussia, he was present when Napoleon III surrendered to the Germans, which was gratifying to Sheridan following his experiences with the French in Mexico. He later toured most of Europe and returned to the U.S. to report to Grant that although the Prussians were "very good brave fellows [who] had gone into each battle with the determination to win, ... there is nothing to be learned here professionally." He criticized their handling of cavalry and likened their practices to the manner in which Meade had attempted to supervise him."

Here is a link to a Masters thesis presented to the US Army Command and General Staff College, written by a Lieutenant Colonel of the Bundeswehr in 1986. The title is GERMAN OBSERVATIONS AND EVALUATIONS OF THE U.S. CIVIL WAR: A STUDY IN LESSONS NOT LEARNED. I think you'll find it covers the subject more thoroughly than just about any place else, and tends to back up that the Civil War was ignored in Germany. There's no evidence that the Prussian General Staff ever studied in before fighting either Austria of France, except perhaps in some technical aspects. Anyway, I think you'll find the paper well worth reading.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA384203

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#13

Post by hvonblumenthal » 27 Apr 2012, 20:58

Personally I like Geoffrey Wawro's book The Austro-Prussian War, though (call me biased....) he does not devote much space to Gen von Blumenthal's achievement in getting the 2nd Army through the passes of the Riesen Mountains, an astonishing logistical feat; and by the way he was Leonhard, not Albrecht von Blumenthal.

- Henry von Blumenthal

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Re: 1866 Austro -Prussian Conflict

#14

Post by theironduke1 » 04 Sep 2013, 22:35

My Book "Armies of Bismarck's Wars - Prussia 1860-1867" has just been published by Casemate. If any of you have read it I would appreciate comments. www.uniformology.com

Bruce

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