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The Knights Templar

Discussions on the pre First World War era.

The Knights Templar

Postby Ottens on 09 Jun 2004 14:26

This thread is for me and ohrdruf to discuss the Knights Templar, as ohrdruf said he could supply me with more info. :)
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Postby Tom Houlihan on 09 Jun 2004 15:01

Ottens, Google it! I was looking for some related info, and found some interesting info on the Templars. There's lots out there on them, that's for sure!

Sorry, didn't mean to intrude...
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Postby ChristopherPerrien on 10 Jun 2004 15:02

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Postby ohrdruf on 10 Jun 2004 16:13

Ottens

You should throw the subject open. There is an enormous amount of information and documentation about the Knights Templar of Spanish origin for example which has never been consulted by English-language scholars who tend to think only in terms of France. Many Templar structures are to be found in Spain in excellent condition and with many strange facets. There is a wealth of knowledge still to be tapped. With reference to primary documents available to the historian in a local archive south of Andorra, it appears that the organisation was in existence at least nine years before 1118.

DID SOME TEMPLARS REACH ARGENTINA?

The Templar fleet sailed from La Rochelle on 12 October 1307 and it is known its vessels divided and went to Scotland, Morocco, Arab destinations and Teneriffe. The possibility exists that a part of the Fleet reached Argentina. If so, South America was discovered before Columbus. Since charts began, there has always been a "ruined fort" of unknown origin marked at 41 deg S on the Gulf of San Matias south of San Antonio del Oeste. This has recently been excavated and is thought to be Templar. The website is obtained best by this route:

Go to http//www.yahoo.com.ar
ENTER "el fuerte templario" in YAHOO Search
CLICK on item (1) "Fundacion Delphos"
Go to near bottom of page, CLICK on "Galeria de Fotos"
Photos of fort ruins (CLICK to enlarge) are near foot.

To the west of these ruins is a vast, windswept, almost uninhabited plateau known as Somnacura described as "a desert within a desert". One hundred kms from anywhere on this plateau is a village by the name "El Cain". Nearby there is a strange pyramid-shaped hill. The village has been there since records began. "El Cain" means "The Evil One" or "The Antichrist" and researchers wonder whether this was originally a Templar settlement.


THE LEGEND OF THE UNTERSBERG

What was the legend of the Untersberg mountain, at which Hitler spent many hours gazing from his study in the Berghof? Historians guess that like King Arthur, probably Frederick the Great is buried there, waiting for the call to arise from the dead to come to his country's aid in its hour of need. That is not the legend of the Untersberg.

In 1220, Templar Komtur Hubertus Koch, returning with a small party from the Crusades, passed through Mesopotamia, and near the old city of Nineveh in modern Irak received an apparition of the goddess Isais (first child of goddess Isis and god Set). She told him to withdraw to the Untersberg mountain, build a house there and await her next apparition.

In 1221, Koch erected his first Komturei at the foot of Ettenberg near Markt Schellenberg. A second, larger structure followed. It is believed that over the next few years underground galleries were excavated into various areas of the Untersberg, and in one of them a temple to Isais was built.

A second apparition occurred in 1226 and were repeated on occasions until 1238. During this period the Templars received "Die Isais Offenbarung", a series of prophesies (recently published) and information concerning the Holy Grail. The Templars at Jerusalem had knowledge of these visitations, over which the Church drew a veil of silence. What follows is only Tradition, but may be of interest.

It is the German tradition that the Templars were ordered to form a secret scientific sect in southern Germany, Austria and northern Italy to be known as "Die Herren vom Schwarzen Stein" or "DHvSS" for short, and this is the true, hidden meaning of "SS".

The Holy Grail ("Ghral"=holy stone, Persian/Arabic) was said to be a black-violet crystal, half quartz, half amethyst, through which Higher Powers communicated with humanity. It was given into the safe-keeping of the Cathars, and smuggled out of the last stronghold at Montsegur, France, and hidden, by four Cathar women on the night of 14 March 1244. There is a Cathar legend that 700 years after the destruction of the Cathar religion the Holy Grail would be returned to its rightful holders, DHvSS, or the SS.

It may be of interest to note in this connection that the Tea House designed by Hitler and built atop the Mooslahnerkopf at Obersalzberg, the stone pavillion still standing today, bears a striking resemblance to Montsegur when view at certain angles from the foot of the great rocky outcrop. Whether this was a coincidence remains in the mind of the beholder.
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Postby Mikko H. on 11 Jun 2004 10:24

If you want to know the real history of the Knights Templar (as opposed to all this conspiracy crap), I greatly recommend Malcolm Barber's two books on the subject. One, The New Knighthood is a general history of the Templars, and the other, which name I just now can't remember, is about their suppression by the French king in early 14th century.
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Postby Andy H on 11 Jun 2004 15:56

Ottens wrote:
This thread is for me and ohrdruf to discuss the Knights Templar, as ohrdruf said he could supply me with more info.


There are no 'private' threads on the forum. All threads are open to all members. If you wish to have a exclusive discussion with another member either use the PM or email each other.

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Postby ohrdruf on 11 Jun 2004 16:46

It amazes me how a gentleman from Finland, of all places, considering himself knowledgable on Templar history to the extent that he can recommend literature on the subject, cannot remember the title of a book he is recommending and is also unaware that the dissolution of the Templars was a conspiracy between the French king and Pope Clement V.

History to the historian is, or should be, anything which may have a bearing on the area under scrutiny. Only when we know a thing can we judge whether it should be discarded or not. The word "crap" appears only rarely in historical treatises and tends to indicate the mentality of the gentleman using it.
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Postby Ottens on 11 Jun 2004 18:51

First of all, apparently something was misunderstood: Of course this thread is open for everyone to discuss the theme of the Knights Templar, but I opened it in the first placed, because ohrdruf asked me to do so, so we could talk about it.

Secondly: Nazi "UFOs" were considered "conspiracy crap" once, but there is enough documentation to proof its true existence today. Just an example of that in "conspiracy crap", there is often a core of truth. Though there's allot of crap too, indeed.

Oh, and Tom: Don't you think that, due to my interest in the Knights Templar, I've never done a google search for it...?

Now, back on topic... Hitler, in 1934, said: "We shall form an Order, the Brotherhood of the Templars around the Holy Grail of the pure blood."

Now, the "pure blood" was of course the Aryan master race. The "Brotherhood of Templars" obviously refers to the Knights Templar. Still, I would be interested in more Nazi connections with the Knights Templar.

Himmler considered himself the incarnate of King Heinrich, a medieval German monarch. Did this King Heinrich have any connections with the Templars?
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Postby Tom Houlihan on 12 Jun 2004 05:08

Ottens wrote:Oh, and Tom: Don't you think that, due to my interest in the Knights Templar, I've never done a google search for it...?


Well, yeah, I guess I should have assumed that. :roll: Your question just triggered the memory of all the interesting things that popped up. Impulse, don't you know!
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Postby ohrdruf on 12 Jun 2004 21:22

Ottens

If you search the web for "Otto Rahn" this may repay you. Rahn was a German researcher with an interest in the Cathars and spent most of the 1930s in and around Montsegur in France where he felt certain he would find the Grail.

He wrote two books on the subject of his search. This interested the SS in him sufficiently to invite him join their ranks in the equivalent rank of sergeant in 1936, and he was allowed to continue his research work until 1939. On the 695th anniversary of the burning of the Cathar faithful, 15 March 1939, he was found in the Tyrol, an apparent suicide. It may have been no coincidence that he was by then claiming to know the exact location where the Grail was hidden on Montsegur, and had started the manuscript for his third book. Montsegur was in France and not Germany, and Rahn may have unwisely disregarded SS advice not to proceed with the idea of publication.

Regarding Hitler's documented religious beliefs which may possibly explain the way in which he envisaged creating the Master Race, see my post of 10 June under thread "The Nazi Church", forum heading "Life in the Third Reich".

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Postby Kephra on 13 Jun 2004 12:11

AHF-Thread about Otto Rahn:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=36735
------------
Grüße!
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Postby Mikko H. on 14 Jun 2004 09:11

Ohrdruf wrote:

It amazes me how a gentleman from Finland, of all places,


What does my nationality has to do with all this???

he can recommend literature on the subject, cannot remember the title of a book he is recommending


That's the way my mind works on occasion! :) The other book's name, BTW, is The Trial of the Templars.

is also unaware that the dissolution of the Templars was a conspiracy between the French king and Pope Clement V.


I'd like to see the evidence for this. What evidence we have points that if it was a conspiracy, it was a conspiracy of French king and his high officials. The whole affair, it seems, was hoisted on a reluctant Pope who had very little freedom of maneuver because he was almost totally dependent on French support.

History to the historian is, or should be, anything which may have a bearing on the area under scrutiny. Only when we know a thing can we judge whether it should be discarded or not.


In study of history we can never be absolutely certain that we "know" something for sure. It's the question of evidence and what is the most reasonable explanation for it. Occam's razor comes handy.

The word "crap" appears only rarely in historical treatises and tends to indicate the mentality of the gentleman using it.


You're correct here, my usage of word "crap" does indicate my mentality. I was somewhat irritated and apologize for my choice of word.

Ottens stated:

Nazi "UFOs" were considered "conspiracy crap" once, but there is enough documentation to proof its true existence today.


And that evidence is... ?
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Postby Annelie on 14 Jun 2004 12:51

Kephra



AHF-Thread about Otto Rahn:

viewtopic.php?t=36735
------------
Grüße!
Kephra



Thankyou, most interesting.
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Postby Ottens on 14 Jun 2004 15:53

And that evidence is... ?

I believe ohrdruf started a thread about this...

viewtopic.php?t=50624
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Postby Kurt_Steiner on 19 Jun 2004 10:57

I would like to ask some doubts I got while reading this thread, if it is possible.

ohrdruf wrote:
In 1220, Templar Komtur Hubertus Koch, returning with a small party from the Crusades, passed through Mesopotamia, and near the old city of Nineveh in modern Irak


Returning to where? Europe? Through Irak? 8O

It was given into the safe-keeping of the Cathars, and smuggled out of the last stronghold at Montsegur, France, and hidden, by four Cathar women on the night of 14 March 1244.


Well, Montsegur surrendered on 14 March 1244, so I suppose you refer to the night of the 13th to the 14th.

The Templar fleet sailed from La Rochelle on 12 October 1307 and it is known its vessels divided and went to Scotland, Morocco, Arab destinations and Teneriffe. The possibility exists that a part of the Fleet reached Argentina.


Usually it is suggested that the Templar fleet sailed to North America. It's the first time I find any suggestion it went to the South. About this comment that "it is know" do you really mean that or do you meant "it is supposed"?

Ottens wrote:
Nazi "UFOs" were considered "conspiracy crap" once, but there is enough documentation to proof its true existence today.


Really?

Himmler considered himself the incarnate of King Heinrich, a medieval German monarch. Did this King Heinrich have any connections with the Templars?


Which Heinrich? The 5th, the 6th?

In short, those stories about the Templars and their "nazis" connections are highly interesting, very amazing, but they are stories, not history.

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