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Worst commanders

Discussions on the other eras of our history, pre-Cold War.

Postby Victor on 01 Nov 2002 21:31

Aristotle wrote: They didn't know know what to do for years, they were completely stunned!


They were so stunned that they kept on fighting and finally won! :roll:

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Postby Aristotle on 11 Nov 2002 04:27

Victor wrote:
Aristotle wrote: They didn't know know what to do for years, they were completely stunned!


They were so stunned that they kept on fighting and finally won! :roll:


Indeed they did finally win but only after years of being harassed by an outnumbered enemy alone in hostile territory!

Roman victory was never in doubt after the Delayer took command but it took them alot longer than it should have considering they were fighting on home soil, with numerically superior forces and short lines of supply and communication. As for the fact that they kept on fighting, WHAT ELSE WOULD THEY DO! You don't stop fighting when the wolf is snapping at the door, the Romans weren't about to just give up but that wasn't the piont I was making.

Daniel.

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Postby Victor on 11 Nov 2002 22:07

First you say that they were stunned and could not do anything for years and then you say that they fought and harassed the enemy etc, etc.
Make up your mind. :D

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Postby Aristotle on 12 Nov 2002 10:19

Actually Victor I said the Romans were harassed not Hannibal's troops.
:wink:

And it is true. The Romans weren't used to being attacked by an outnumbered enemy and they didn't know how to deal with it. The number of Roman dead as opposed to the losses Hannibal suffered attests to that. I will give you this though. The Romans did learn. But they took a lot of casualties and defeats and stand-offs to do it.

Daniel.

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Postby cybercat on 25 Nov 2002 01:14

Worst commander? General Rasim Delic Armija RBiH - fat useless git!

Ratko Mladic may have been a mad bastard (and some say, but not I, a war criminal) but at least he was a good commander who never lost a battle that he took part in....Oh I'd better be careful I'm beginning to sound like a cetnik - hehehe

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Postby ISU-152 on 12 Dec 2002 15:04

Andy wrote:Zhukov was very good in my opinion. One of the worst would have to be Samsonov who was crushed at Tannenburg and I think he was also defeated during the Russo-Japanese War, another really bad General was Nivelle who claimed in could win World War I in 48 hours but his offensive failed miserably. One more would have to be Hannibal Barca..... Just Kidding.


Three Cheers for Nelson!


Zhukov is all you seem to know about Soviet commanders. There were commanders who commanded miserably in Red Army such as Tymoshenko and Kozlov (lost Crimea in 1942 to far inferior forces of Manstein). Zhukov on the other hand picked up all the glory of soviet forces.

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Postby General Patton on 20 Dec 2002 11:16

Easy,
Montgomery.
Arnhem was a stupid plan and his ego got in the way. He knew about the panzers. He sent the british first airborne along with the others to die. His exploits in normandy are disaster. Goodwood, epsom, charwood, all terrible and then claiming it was a diversionary move. He wanted Caen by the end of D-Day. El Alamien was not all that great. All he did was charge a beatne out gunned, out number, out eqiuped, out airforced, out artyed enemy with very very few tanks yet he still took 12 days even to dislodge them, took equal casualties, and had to go to his backup plan. His plan to cross the rhine was terrible, using c-46s which were prone to blowing up, over one of the greatest concentrations of flak in the world! what an a** of a general. Also, he is qouted for saying "You cant win a war without a tidy show". And then he waits until the german offensive has fizzled in Battle of the Bulge and until all the americans have stopped them and taken all the casualties, then he goes in using american troops and a few brits and says he and the brits saved the americans arse in the battle. All he fought was the badly led 6th SS panzer army which was quite ineffective during the battle. Worst ever in my Mind.

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Postby Phil C on 21 Dec 2002 15:11

Rawlinson & Haig for the battle of the Somme. Although courtesy of Blackadder they did move their drink cabinet a gargantuan 6inches closer to Berlin.

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Postby Oleg Grigoryev on 26 Dec 2002 07:44

ISU-152 wrote:
Andy wrote:Zhukov was very good in my opinion. One of the worst would have to be Samsonov who was crushed at Tannenburg and I think he was also defeated during the Russo-Japanese War, another really bad General was Nivelle who claimed in could win World War I in 48 hours but his offensive failed miserably. One more would have to be Hannibal Barca..... Just Kidding.


Three Cheers for Nelson!


Zhukov is all you seem to know about Soviet commanders. There were commanders who commanded miserably in Red Army such as Tymoshenko and Kozlov (lost Crimea in 1942 to far inferior forces of Manstein). Zhukov on the other hand picked up all the glory of soviet forces.


Timoshenko is responsible for recapture of Rostov in 1941 and for Jasi-Kishenev offensive in 1944. Kozlov could not get Mekhlis off his back and that hampered him greatly.

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Postby ISU-152 on 26 Dec 2002 10:53

oleg wrote:
ISU-152 wrote:
Andy wrote:Zhukov was very good in my opinion. One of the worst would have to be Samsonov who was crushed at Tannenburg and I think he was also defeated during the Russo-Japanese War, another really bad General was Nivelle who claimed in could win World War I in 48 hours but his offensive failed miserably. One more would have to be Hannibal Barca..... Just Kidding.


Three Cheers for Nelson!


Zhukov is all you seem to know about Soviet commanders. There were commanders who commanded miserably in Red Army such as Tymoshenko and Kozlov (lost Crimea in 1942 to far inferior forces of Manstein). Zhukov on the other hand picked up all the glory of soviet forces.


Timoshenko is responsible for recapture of Rostov in 1941 and for Jasi-Kishenev offensive in 1944. Kozlov could not get Mekhlis off his back and that hampered him greatly.


Tymoshenko proved himself as inflexible commander. He would use the same tactics of sacrificing scores of troops to reach a dubious objective. Since the Finnish campaign his "fame" trailed with him. The soldiers would say "Here comes Tymokha, watch out for your lives, he would spare none of us".

regards

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In defense of Custer

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 28 Dec 2002 05:49

He graduated last in his class at Westpoint, which ain't too bad. Considering the that I think West produces mostly bad officers except for Lee and Grant and a few others.

Killing Indians was/is just plain wrong.

But I will say this about G.A.Custer, He had some big brass balls and he died with his boots on, True Cav.

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Worst Commander: Macarthur

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 28 Dec 2002 06:09

Macarthur went "native" while generalissimo of the Phillipine Army before Pearl Harbor. For days(2) he did not take offensive measures against the Japanese after Pearl Harbor as he was ordered to do by the US Gov. Perhaps because he was paid about $500,000 by the Phillipine president not to, because they had hope that they could keep the Phillipines out of the war. This inevitably cause the loss of the Phillipines and the death of thousands of American soldiers- say Bataan Death March.
What do you expect from a "soldier" who's nickname was "Dugout Doug" called so by his own troops.

I call this deriliction of duty and "High Treason".

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Worst Tactical US Commander Patton

Postby ChristopherPerrien on 28 Dec 2002 06:25

This is funny as I am a tanker and Patton is our "God". But------

Patton was the prime mover to not produce the Persing Tank before the war rather he favored the Sherman- say "Tiger Food" because that was US army doctrine at the time, he wrote the doctrine.
I have met US tankers from the western front of WWII you can still see the terror in their eyes if you try to talk about fighting german tanks.

Also Patton advocated some other great ideas like "Marching Fire" which I believed to be proven to be a real stupid way to get killed in the Civil War, and WWI, but that was US Army Doctrine though WWII, Patton definetely was by the book, West Pointer go figure.

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Postby Angelo on 28 Dec 2002 07:32

Personally, I'd have

Mussolini
Hitler
Napoleon
Varo (Varus)
Westmoreland
Custer

not necessarily in that order though :)

Kind of kidding, but anyway those 6 would be there, regardless of a more
in depth study.

Angelo

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Postby Galahad on 05 Jan 2003 12:00

A few comments.....Caesar's key mistake wasn't claiming too much power too fast.....rather, it was not bringing his armed bodyguard with him to the Senate on the Ides of March. <g>

Contrary to popular belief, Hannibal was perfectly capable of conducting sieges. His problem wasn't siegcraft or lack of siege weapons; he had engineers and they could have made any weapon he needed. His problem was simply the size of his army.

He's wrongly faulted for not laying siege to Rome after the Battle of Cannae, for instance. But that would have meant trying to lay siege to the largest city in Italy, both in area and in population, with an army of less than 50,000 men, a task hard enough to do in any case. But he'd have to do it with almost all of Italy raising new forces.

He had enough force for a siege, or for a battle, but not for both--yet any attempt at laying siege to Rome would have guaranteed his army would be both tied down in one spot AND would be the target of relieving armies. To fight the relief forces would mean he'd have to lift the siege, which would mean the city could be resupplied, etc. Further still, in those days, the surest way to cause your army to be decimated by disease was to mount a siege, which would have caused his already small force to grow smaller.

Hannibal pursued the only strategy that had any reasonable chance of success. Defeat Rome repeatedly in the field, and try to cause its alliance with other Italian states to fall apart through their defection. Though it failed, against any state of that time except Rome, it would have succeeded. Only Rome had the institutional strength to maintain loyalty among the most of the peoples it had conquered under the defeats that were inflicted upon it.

Now, for worst generals.....In no particular order of awfulness, I offer the following:
1. Benjamin Butler, who, though he outnumbered Beauregard by some 4 to 1, managed to get himself defeated outside of Richmond in 1864, and was then locked up by Beauregard inside a fortified position at Bermuda Hundred. Grant said it was like he was corked up in a bottle. He's also the genius who refused Lincoln's offer of the 1864 spot of Vice President on the Republican ticket. He said he wouldn't take it unless Lincoln could guarantee he'd be President within 90 days of being sworn in. Since Lincoln was sworn in as President on March the 4th, and assassinated on April 14th, Butler demonstrated a wonderful inability to see the future.

2. Charles XII of Sweden. He was one of the most incredible leaders in history. He inspired his men like few commanders ever have. He was a tactical genius, with an incredible ability to take in a given tactical problem at a glance and then instantly order the correct response needed to solve it. And he had all the strategic ability of a rock.....which ability directly caused Sweden's reduction to the status of a minor power.

3. Eric Ludendorff. The man who invented "Total War" and coined the term. The man who demanded that Germany launch unrestricted submarine warfare in 1917 and threatened to resign if that wasn't done, despite being warned it would provoke the US into declaring war; he said the war would be over before the US could intervene. Despite all his undoubted ability, when push came to shove, in the Kaiser's Offensive of 1918, he ignored the strategic principle of reinforcing success in order to follow his plan. By sending reinforcements according to the plan, rather than to the army that was making the best progress, he personally killed any chance he had to gain the peace he launched the offensive to win.

4. Shah Muhammed of Kwarizm. First he needlessly provoked a war with Genghis Khan, by refusing to return the riches pillaged from a Mongol caravan by one of his governors and punish the governor responsible for the crime. Further, when Genghis Khan politely asked for this to be done, he killed the ambassador who made the request, and sent the other members of the embassy back with their beards shaved (Genghis did punish the governor; since he liked gold and silver so much, the molten form of it was poured down his throat).

Then, when Muhammed got the war his actions caused, instead of concentrating his forces, he scattered them all over his empire as garrisons, so that when the Mongols invaded--from 4 different directions!--he had no effective field army to fight with. The end result was that the Kwarizmian Empire was destroyed in one campaign.....though it was considerably stronger in terms of population and troops than the Mongols.

5. Frederick the Great of Prussia. A man of incredible talents in many fields, not the least of which were greed and overconfidence. First he breaks his own pledged word and steals Silesia from Austria.....thus needlessly making a mortal enemy of Austria's Empress. He liked battles so much that he managed to nearly destroy the Prussian Army through the number he fought, a considerable percentage of which he lost through his own overconfidence and the sheer size of the enemies he made through his own greed.

Though he won some incredible victories because of his tactical genius and his army's training, the ending of the 7 Years War found him holed up in a fortified camp because he didn't dare risk a battle in the open. The only thing that saved him to be able to enjoy his honorific title "the Great" was the fact that Russia's Empress Elizabeth--who hated him almost as much as did Maria Theresa of Austria--died, and her successor admired Frederick so much that he declared peace, almost at the moment that Prussia was fated to become a 2nd-rate power again.

6. Braxton Bragg. An interesting man, and possibly the best trainer of troops in the Confederate Army, but one whose talents were definitely not for field command. He commanded at one of the Confederacy's greatest victories--Chickamauga--and at several of its better defeats. He showed considerable ability at planning and executing a campaign, but seemed to run into a mental block when faced with a battlefield. And when he actually WON a battle, he he seemed dumbfounded and totally unable to think of what to do next. After Chickamauga, a rapid pursuit would certainly have led to the capture of Chattanooga, and probably the destruction of the Union forces there, which same were utterly disorganized and demoralized. But instead of pursuing, he sat down for two days and buried his many dead.

His greatest claim to combative ability was his incredible genius for arguing with his subordinate officers, to the point where none liked him, most distrusted him, and almost all organized a cabal behind his back to get him removed on the grounds of demonstrated incompetence. Fortunately for him, he was an old friend and colleague of Confederate President Jefferson Davis.

He cost himself the loss of by far the best cavalry commander in the Confederate Army, Bedford Forrest, by twice stealing Forrest's command and giving it to another man. He got Forrest on his case to the point where Forrest told him that if he ever interferred with him again, Forrest would kill him, and that in the future he would refuse to serve under him. Given that Forrest was a man of his word who killed 31 men in personal combat during the war, this was a promise, not a threat. Bragg never bothered Forrest again, one instance where he showed wisdom.

During his tenure in command of the Confederate Army of Tennessee, it became the best retreating force ever seen in North America.

7. Bernard Montgomery. His failure to destroy Rommel in the "pursuit" after El Alamein proved his incompetence. Though he KNEW he outnumbered Rommel many to one, in men, tanks, guns and planes--through Ultra intercepts of Rommel's returns to his higher HQ--he refused to either launch any kind of a hasty attack against any position Rommel took up. He also refused to try to cut Rommel off, either by a deep flanking operation such as O'Connor used against the Italians, or by a seaborne landing deep in Rommel's rear. By the time he got prepared to attack, Rommel simply withdrew, after his men had had a nice rest.

His ego probably caused WW II in Europe to continue into 1945, by his ignoring of his specific instructions to capture both the port of Antwerp AND the approaches leading to it from the sea--even though he could have done so with no resistance from the Germans and further cut off several German divisions by doing so. The result was that the supply problems which caused the Allied offensive to stall--despite a lack of organized German resistance--continued, allowing the Germans to recover from the defeats in France. He was intent at the time on launching Operation Market-Garden, which was designed to gain for him the glory that had been going to Patton and seems to have ignored pretty much everything else.

It's more than symbolic that in his revision of the British Army's infantry manual, FSR I, he removed the chapter that covered pursuit and exploitation after battle, and kept it removed even when Liddell Hart noted the lack and pointed it out to him. Like Braxton Bragg of the Confederate Army, he knew how to win a battle, but had no idea what to do with the victory.

There are more that I could name, but each of the above is outstanding in his own way.

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