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Worst commanders

Discussions on the other eras of our history, pre-Cold War.

Re: Worst commanders

Postby The_Enigma on 06 Jun 2008 02:22

Just searching the thread i can't believe people actually mentioned Haig, he basically won the First World War. Cared for his men, did his best to have them die in vain and brought in new weapons and tactics in an attempt to lower casualties. I would suggest reading his diary for an look into his mind.

I don't know about the worse general but i of the opinion of Graziani being a pretty more one. Losing the entire, reinforced, Tenth Army to two divisions (there was 3, however the Indians were replaced by the Aussies and the 3 never fought together during the Op) and a couple hundred tanks (if that). Thats a massive balls up if you ask me.


PS: Not to sound like a British general worshiper or anything - but to slag Monty off for being "over cautious" after El Alamien and then slag him off when he comes up with a pretty bold plan with an attempt to end the war early, seems like you not being truely fair. Also claiming he was just trying to hog the glory from PAtton also doesnt seem to be recognises the same thing Patton was doing - attempting to hog the glory. Is it not true that he did his best to stall supplies being sent north to 21st AG who was preparing for the offensive.

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby AQUILIFER on 10 Jun 2008 11:28

Monty may have not been a great general, but to class him as anything less than competent is silly.
"Worst generals" don't win the vast majority of their battles.


My thoughts exactly and I would also say something to that effect about Haig, who has also been mentioned a few times. "Blackadder Goes Forth" :D and The Somme are apparently enough to rank him among the worst?! Maybe reading some (new) books about the British army under Haig, and the development it went through, would be in place.

If this thread is to make any sense people should get things into perspective before they throw names of commanders out there! Some of those mentioned not only won battles but wars! (Haig included, with allies of course).

The thread is not about the mediocre or barely adequate (not that I consider Haig any of these) but WORST commanders :)

/AQUILIFER

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby The_Enigma on 10 Jun 2008 11:59

It's unfortuante then he is quite literally the public scape goat for the losses and for the war itself - in one of the editions of his diary which i own there is a note in the editors preface iirc that mentions he stills get bad press in the papers to this day. I believe they made an example of some uniformed newspapers ran a story a few years ago about how they should pull his statue down because he was such a "terrible" man.

Of course Blackadder being highly hierlous, will be remembered by people who will take comedic take on what happened rather then read up on what really went on.

Anyhoo end of the rant :P

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby revans618 on 17 Jun 2008 14:32

Would have to be Lloyd Fredendall, in command of American troops in N. Africa. Sets up his command bunker 80 miles behind the fighting and never goes forward to see what's going on.

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby Richard Hargreaves on 17 Jun 2008 16:17

The chap in charge at Suvla Bay. Shall we march in land and take the high ground, or shall we have a spot of tea...

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby glavasstanoje on 21 Jun 2008 15:46

Richard Hargreaves wrote:The chap in charge at Suvla Bay. Shall we march in land and take the high ground, or shall we have a spot of tea...

Tea :D

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Re:

Postby Alaric on 03 Aug 2008 20:12

Gwynn Compton wrote:I know this will stir up some debate, but General Custer of the 7th Cavalry perhaps?


George Armstrong Custer has become the favorite whipping boy of every left wing revisionist "historian" (most of whom no nothing of the politics of the era, of the 1876 campaign, of the makeup of the command structure of the 7th U.S. Cavalry and of the Battle of the Little Bighorn) and movie producer. Although my sympathies are entirely with the Confederacy, Custer was a very successful cavalry commander in Lincoln's War and on the frontier up to that battle.

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Re:

Postby Alaric on 03 Aug 2008 20:15

Caldric wrote:
I know this will stir up some debate, but General Custer of the 7th Cavalry perhaps?



Which brings the movie "We Were Soldiers" to mind.

I love it when the Sgt Major calls Custer a Pus**. was very funny, if you seen the movie you will know what I am talking about. It was about the 7th Cavalry in La Drang Valley in Vietnam.

At any rate I think Custer would surely rank up there as one of the worse.


I have despised Sam Elliot ever since that movie for that very reason. Discarded every movie I have with him in it and refused to buy or even read the book.

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Re:

Postby Alaric on 03 Aug 2008 20:55

Gwynn Compton wrote:How is the history of Little Big Horn taught in American schools? I've always been under the impression that it was taught as if Custer was some hero...

On the same line of thought, how is the history of Wounded Knee taught? Is it portrayed as the massacre or as an actual battle?

Gwynn


It used to be taught that he was a hero, before it became fashionable to tear down real heroes and pump up paper pushing buffoons like Schwartzkopf and Eisenhower and Westmoreland and drunken fools like Grant who was terribly profligate with the lives of his men. That's why McClellan (who's name was mispelled in an earlier post) was relieved, he was more cautious than Grant and didn't engage in getting his men slaughtered unnecessarily. He was highly popular with his troops, unlike Grant, for that reason. He was made a scapegoat by Lincoln partisans. Grant was one of the worst field commanders ever (along with Braxton Bragg), and a thoroughly corrupt politician. He simply won because he had more lives and resources to waste. If what the guy who posted before the post I'm replying to is getting taught the bilgewater at "Infantry School" with apparently no real study of the battle, of Custer's orders or of what he knew or was told before the survivors started villifying him to cover their own cowardly asses, it's no wonder the U.S. military got run out of North Korea, lost in Vietnam and is getting its ass kicked in Iraq and Afhganistan. BTW, my father was a career soldier who joined the army at age 15 in 1942, landed at Omaha Beach at age 17 and was awarded a battlefield commission and a Silver Star for the same action in Korea.

When I rode to Sturgis, S.D. for the annual biker rally in late July, 2003, I stopped at the Little Bighorn Battlefield. There some Indian female college intern Park Ranger was giving the new and politically correct version of George Armstrong Custer, the 1876 campaign and the battle to visitors. Off the side, as I was walking up, some older, gray haired Indian male had button-holed some tourist telling him "I'm not supposed to be here" as in the army in 1876 was on some sort of genocide mission (uh, who committed genocide on that hill?). About 5 minutes into her tirade, I interrupted this woman, because I could tolerate no more of this, told her "You're full of (feces), you know nothing about the battle, the personalities and what went before. I could do a better job of instructing here, since I've actually read books by serious scholars and survivors of the regiment and studied it for many years, you've got an agenda". After that I proceeded to so for about 45 minutes. It was not my first trip to the battlefield, but hadn't been there for about 15 years. I recommended some books such as To Hell With Honor-Custer and the Little Big Horn, and concluded with pointing to that monument to the Indians, called it an abomination that was about as appropriate as putting up a memorial to the Japanese at Pearl Harbor, and then continued my tour of the battlefield. I got applause as I was walking away. The "Rangers" looked like they wanted to kill, the feeling was mutual.

I could go into the details of the march across the divide, and the splitting of the command, and of the failures of the battalion commanders Reno (a more wretched officer may never have served the army and it's a disgrace that they finally put his remains at the LBH cemetary) and Benteen (a bitter spiteful, hateful and jealous man but at least a brave soldier); but that is not what this thread is for. If you read just one book on this action, read To Hell With Honor by Larry Sklenar. You'll learn more than from any other single source.

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby Simon K on 03 Aug 2008 23:16

Gen Nivelle who by his disasterous Atois offensive in spring 1917, broke the French armys elan (its effects perhaps lingering to 1940) and created the conditions for the worst mutinies in French army history.

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby Simon K on 03 Aug 2008 23:27

Damn. Hes' been done
Ok..Goerings leadership of the Luftwaffe left a lot to be desired.

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby phylo_roadking on 04 Aug 2008 01:44

Antonio de Padua María Severino López de Santa Anna y Pérez de Lebrón. Otherwise known to history as Santa Anna.

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby Simon K on 04 Aug 2008 01:54

He must have had a king size ID disc.

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby phylo_roadking on 04 Aug 2008 02:15

No - just "Remember the Alamo" tattooed on the inside of his eyelids...

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Re: Worst commanders

Postby EKB on 04 Aug 2008 08:14

Gwynn Compton wrote:I was just waiting for someone to defend Custer :mrgreen:



You put Custer in this category because he lost one battle?

The errors that he personally made at the Little Big Horn were not on the scale of Isandlwana or the Charge of the Light Brigade. Custer had a brilliant civil war record and measured up favorably against European cavalry officers of that era, many of whom volunteered for service with General Grant or General Lee.
Last edited by EKB on 04 Aug 2008 21:30, edited 1 time in total.

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