Korea Armored Battle?

[Carl Schwamberger]

A decade or more ago I was informed of a tank vs tank battle between the US Army and the NKPA, occuring in the lat summer or autum of 1950. This fight is suposed to have had a battalion plus of tanks on each side. Anyone have any knowledge of this battle or sources on it? Or, was I the victim of bad information?

Thanks

[ejstuczko]

You may be a victim of bad information. In August and September 1950, there were some tank on tank battles along the Naktong River Line of the Pusan Perimeter, but the mountainous geography of Korea during the remainder of the conflict was a deterrent to armor, forcing them to be utilized as artillery from fixed positions in support of infantry. The link below is from a History Channel episode of tank battles from the early period of that war...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11tBLRzKeZs

[Carl Schwamberger]

Thanks. I'll pass on the History channel for the moment. The literature on the Naktong River battles I've seen had nothing about tank vs tank fights. Which does not mean they did not happen, but they were not mentioned.

I trained in Korea in 1983-84. It certainly was mountainous, and we spent a lot of time training with tanks there.

[JamesL]

The 1959 armored action does not ring a bell with me. I did some web surfing and could not find anything on it.

However, around that time Japan was repatriating a number of Koreans back to North Korea. It stirred up some emotions and some minor naval and air activity occurred. Also a couple of rifle rounds across the border. Other than that ... nothing.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Opps, I see i originally posted 1959 in error. should have been 1950. Read my post twice & missed that Must be all those head blows on the construction site Hopefully the correct date will sort out better what may or may not have happened in 1950

[ejstuczko]

Early in the war, the only US tanks available were M24 Chaffees transferred from Japan on short notice, which were no match for the North Korean T34. My dad shipped over with the 72d Tank Battalion (2ID) in August 1950- they had Sherman tanks and later on M46 Patton tanks, which had better firepower/armor but were prone to mechanical failures. The Sherman was the "go to" tank- dependable, good armor and the added bonus of numbers like in WWII. NK in 1951-53 had virtually no armor- destroyed by UN air and ground forces during Pusan Perimeter breakout. My Flickr site (link below) is a tribute to my father with many photos of Korean War armor in 1950/51/52 and some from the Cold War- he was in US Army armor 1945-69. The History Channel episode would answer a lot of your questions.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ejstuczko/

[Carl Schwamberger]

The photographs were great, thanks for those. There were a couple of the Chorewon Valley that looked familar.

[JamesL]

Carl - I haven't come across any battalion sized actions. There were a few other small but interesting ones, though.

"Cavalry Cracks Enemy's Defenses: Tanks in Muzzle-to-Muzzle Fight" The New York Times, Oct. 13, 1950. Action near Songhyon. Four T34-85 tanks attacked armored units of the 1st Cav. Due to the heavy morning fog the American tankers held their fire until the T34s were 25 yards away. One T34 rammed an American tank twice before the T34 was put out of action.

"Two Surprises Mark Seizure of Suwon" NY Times, Sept. 22, 1950. Night action near Suwon airfield. Four T34 tanks attacked armored units of the 7th ID. The lead T34 was allowed to come with 40 feet of the most forward Pershing. All four T34s were destroyed.

PS: All my spelling errors are due to arthritis. That's my story and I am sticking to it.

[Carl Schwamberger]

James... thanks. 1st Cav & 7th ID. If I can identifiy the leading taskforces, then the unit histories may contain some clues.

[JamesL]

Some more info.

COMBAT FAILURE: NIGHTMARE OF ARMORED UNITS SINCE WORLD WAR II - A Monograph by Major William R. Moyer, page 33.
http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... 587/rec/61


"There were very few tank battles in Korea. Like Italy in World War II, the terrain of the Korean peninsula did not support large armored operations. In addition, even though North Korean T-34 tanks led the attack south of the 38th Parallel, the 400 or so tanks of the North Korean Peoples Army were knocked out of action by early winter, 1951. After that, the only significant threat to US armor were minefields and sporadic bazooka fire. In fact, the only serious defeat of American armor in Korea came when a tank column was ambushed by Chinese infantry in a narrow pass between Kunu-ri and Sunchon. In the engagement, sixteen tanks were attacked and destroyed. The largest recorded tank battle of the war occurred in November 1950, when one US tank company took on and defeated a company of North Korean T-34's.

"Constricted terrain and road networks laced with mines proved to be the major threat to US armor in Korea. Effective maneuver was next to impossible throughout the theater due to the poor roads. As a result of poor terrain, armored battalions were reduced in effectiveness and largely supported dismounted infantry action. This infantry support mission and intermittent use as indirect fire in place of artillery, tied up the efforts of most of the tank outfits in theater. A 1st Cavalry Division after action report made clear that "enemy North Korean tanks showed reluctance to slug it out with the medium tanks in tank versus tank fights." (76) Armored unit failure usually only occurred as a result of friendly errors: tank units failing to properly clear minefields, or carelessly entering dangerous chokepoints without an infantry escort."

(76) "Employment of Armor in Korea, Volume II," Operations Research Office, 8th Army, Korea, 8 Aug 1951, p. 218.

I cannot find a clean version of Reference 76 on the web. My anti-virus software goes ballistic and won't allow me to open the documents. Volume I is readily available at the CGSC website.


As an aside, Moyer's paper also discusses the disaster at Sidi-bou-Zid, Tunisia where we lost 100 tanks and an infantry regiment.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Thanks again. Keep this up & I will owe you.

"The largest recorded tank battle of the war occurred in November 1950, when one US tank company took on and defeated a company of North Korean T-34's."

This may be the fight the other party was refering to. Tho he thought it was earlier, during the advance out of the Pusan perimeter to join X Corps at Soeul. The November date sounds like one of the delaying actions while the Chinese counter offensive was being set up.

" the 400 or so tanks of the North Korean Peoples Army were knocked out of action by early winter, 1951."

To digress that sounds like a lot of tanks. The only NKPA OB I've seen showed a brigade of 'tanks', a brigade of armored assualt artillery - presumablly SU & JSU type vehicles, and something described variously as a armored training unit or replacement unit. I've no clue how accurate that was.

[JamesL]

No big deal. It's too blasted hot to go ride my Harley so I am staying inside in air conditioned comfort. (Sure wish the Brits would share some of their rain with us.)

I think it is fair to say that November 1950 say a lot of action in Korea. Some author could write an entire book about that month.

After scanning 6 months of The New York Times I have now set my sights on researching the Turkish Brigade. I think their preferred method of fighting was with knives and bayonets!

[Carl Schwamberger]

Check out Anthony Herberts autobiography. As a Master Sgt he spent several weeks as a liasion with the Turkish Brigade. He as a couple paragraphs on that experience.

[ejstuczko]

To Carl, check out this link... then scroll down to July 10, 1950, which details the first tank battles of the Korean War- M24 v. T34. The site lists all actions for the entire war. The 72d Tank Battalion is documented 31 August-3 September in action at Yongsan, tank on tank, tank on infantry, etc. They received the PUC for this action. You can read the entire citation posted on the second link- page 10. Pretty incredible.

http://www.korean-war.com/TimeLine/1950 ... 03-50.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ejstuczko/ ... hotostream

[Carl Schwamberger]

That is really usefull. I'm seeing some fights between tank platoon & under strength companies. This really caught my eye:

"In the 1st Cavalry Division sector, the division organized Task Force 777 consisting the 7th Cavalry Regiment, the 77th Field Artillery Battalion, and the 70th Tank Battalion. Led by the 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry, Task Force 777 jumped off from just west of Tabu-dong and advanced against occasional organized resistance as it sped toward the river crossing at the Sonsan Ferry. After the task force had turned on to the river road at the village of Kumgok, it was ordered to proceed on to Kaktong-ni and cross there. It arrived just before midnight and was fired on by an antitank gun, which was destroyed. However, during this exchange a shell from one of the tanks hit a North Korean ammunition truck, which exploded lighting up the night. By the light of exploding shells the task force saw hundreds of enemy in the water trying to cross the Naktong as well as a jungle of abandoned tanks, trucks and artillery pieces. It immediately opened fire, killing an estimated 200 North Korean troops in the water and capturing another 200 plus."

It does not say how many abandon NKPA tanks there were, or what type. I expect the 1st Cav claimed them destroyed in its AAR, which might mislead someone into thinking there had been a different sort of battle there. I'll have to complete a through read of this text & see if there is anything else larger than a half company size battle.

Thanks, this has been really productive.