Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

Discussions on other historical eras.
Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#1

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 15 Mar 2016, 17:50

Some Belarusian scholars (for example M. Jezowa, V. Sedov, Perkhavko, Zhuravlev, A. Zalizniak, A. I. Kushniarevich, etc.) have proposed, that during the 10th century there was a large-scale eastward migration of Polabian-Sorbian Slavic refugees from what is now East Germany towards what is now Belarus, triggered in 928 by the beginning of German/Saxon expansion into Slavic lands between the Elbe and the Oder (campaigns led by Henry the Fowler and Otto the Great). According to many linguists, Belarusian language exhibits a higher degree of similarity with Dravano-Polabian, Upper Sorbian, Lower Sorbian and Kashubian, than do other East Slavic languages. Linguist Andrei Zalizniak also mentioned possible North-West Slavic (Lechitic) connection to the Novgorodian dialect, and Lechitic influences in the Belarusian language were also discovered by Zhuravlev's monograph in which he obtained large samples of 2,000-3,000 for modern Slavic languages (his main area of interest is comparative linguistics - a link to his book): http://www.inslav.ru/images/stories/pdf ... ravlev.pdf

This also finds some confirmation in written sources. According to the PVL chronicle, Slavic tribes of the Radimichs and the Viatyches were not native East Slavs, but were recent immigrants to the region, and of of Lyakh (= Lechitic; Western Slavic) origin.

English translation of the PVL here: http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a011458.pdf

And from wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radimichs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechites#Lechitic_group
According to Nestor the Chronicler, the tribe of Radimichs were Lachy (Lechitic) ... Due to some foreign invasion they moved to the East. (Original Russian text "радимичи же и вятичи — от рода ляхов. Были ведь два брата у ляхов — Радим, а другой — Вятко; и пришли и сели: Радим на Соже, и от него прозвались радимичи, а Вятко сел с родом своим по Оке, от него получили свое название вятичи.")
Also Constantine Porphyrogenitus mentioned "Lendzaninoi" (a West Slavic, Lechitic ethnonym) among the Dnipro river route Slavic tributaries to the Rus of Kyiv, locating them between the Kriviches and the Severians. He does not yet speak of Radimiches, but that's the correct area for them - so maybe those Lendzaninoi later became Radimiches (after their ruler called Radim as the PVL explains). The DAI discusses the situation of ca. year 952 AD, few decades after the beginning of the Slavic Wars of Henry the Fowler, and the battle of Lenzen (929 AD).

Also A. I. Kushniarevich (Russian Journal of Genetics: Applied Research, 2012, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 114-121) wrote:

"The migration processes of the later period could enhance the regional differences in the distribution of the studied molecular marker [sub-branch M458 of R1a haplogroup] in the population of modern Belarusians. In particular, a significantly high frequency of the R1a-M458 haplogroup in Ponemanye and Eastern Polesie regions of Belarus can reflect a movement of the tribal communities with genetic characteristics close to those in the local population into the Neman River and Pripiat River basins. Such communities could be for example Polabian Slavs, who left the territory between Elbe River and Oder River at the end of the First and beginning of the Second Millennia under the influence of the expansion of Germanic tribes [Saxons, etc.]. Toponymic parallels, as well as previous results of studies of linguistic and archaeological science, indicate the relationship between the Polabian Slavs and the population of modern Belarus (Jezowa M., 1962; Sedov, 1982; Perkhavko, 1983)."

And here Valentin Sedov's book: https://app.box.com/s/j5b27k8cvr4l415qcokb

A theory that Polabian Slavs emigrating eastward under Saxon pressure played a role in establishing the Polish State during the second quarter of the 10th century also exists in Polish historiography, although it has been criticized by e.g. Przemyslav Urbanczyk, who prefers to see the origins of the Piast dynasty in Great Moravia rather than Obodritia; as well as by Gerard Labuda who rejects all theories of external influence altogether, and claims that Poland was established as the result of internal development of local tribes. Urbanczyk wrote:

https://www.academia.edu/11888388/Origi ... st_dynasty

"Much less attention was paid to concepts which explain the emergence of the Piast state by migration from the west of some Obodrite warriors who allegedly escaped from the Saxon aggression (see criticism in G. Labuda 2002, p. 50)."

But I've checked G. Labuda's 2002 book as referenced by Urbanczyk, and there is nothing there, which criticizes specifically the "Polabian theory". Instead, Labuda 2002 criticizes all theories of foreign origins of the Piast dynasty altogether - including also this one. The only sentence referring in particular to this theory which can be found in Labuda's book, is this:

"I am sceptical of ideas that the Polish realm began with an invasion by Obodrite knights."

However, if those Obodrites were refugees fleeing eastward, then we should rather expect entire tribes or clans - men, women and children - not just military elites. And it was rather - as suggested by Belarusian scholars - an eastward migration of war-tormented peoples (with some groups reaching even as far east as Belarus), not necessarily an armed "invasion".
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

User avatar
henryk
Member
Posts: 2559
Joined: 27 Jan 2004, 02:11
Location: London, Ontario

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#2

Post by henryk » 15 Mar 2016, 20:13

It should be noted that some Polish researchers believe that
territories around Oder and Vistula rivers (in present-day Poland) were continuously inhabited by ancestors of Slavs from the Roman Iron Age (0–400 AD), or perhaps even further back in time from the Bronze Age (3200–600 BC) [7] until the Medieval Age (500–1500 AD) [8].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... te]Several hypotheses have been advanced regarding the origin and early migrations of Slavs, of which two - autochthonous and allochthonous - have predominated. According to the autochthonous hypothesis, territories around Oder and Vistula rivers (in present-day Poland) were continuously inhabited by ancestors of Slavs from the Roman Iron Age (0–400 AD), or perhaps even further back in time from the Bronze Age (3200–600 BC) [7] until the Medieval Age (500–1500 AD) [8]. In contrast, the allochthonous theory suggests the discontinuity of settlements between Roman Iron Age and Medieval Age in the territory of present-day Poland. Allochthonists hypothesize that the Slavs originated in the Pripet and Middle Dnieper River basins in modern-day Ukraine, from where they migrated to the west and south of Europe in the beginning of 5th century AD and inhabited the lands of present-day Poland, which was previously occupied by Germanic tribes during the Roman Iron Age [9]. However, morphological analyses of skeletal materials from present-day Poland have suggested a continuity between Roman Iron Age (represented by Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures) and Medieval Age populations [10], [11] thus providing less support to the allochthonous model[/quote]
Several hypotheses have been advanced regarding the origin and early migrations of Slavs, of which two - autochthonous and allochthonous - have predominated. According to the autochthonous hypothesis, territories around Oder and Vistula rivers (in present-day Poland) were continuously inhabited by ancestors of Slavs from the Roman Iron Age (0–400 AD), or perhaps even further back in time from the Bronze Age (3200–600 BC) [7] until the Medieval Age (500–1500 AD) [8]. In contrast, the allochthonous theory suggests the discontinuity of settlements between Roman Iron Age and Medieval Age in the territory of present-day Poland. Allochthonists hypothesize that the Slavs originated in the Pripet and Middle Dnieper River basins in modern-day Ukraine, from where they migrated to the west and south of Europe in the beginning of 5th century AD and inhabited the lands of present-day Poland, which was previously occupied by Germanic tribes during the Roman Iron Age [9]. However, morphological analyses of skeletal materials from present-day Poland have suggested a continuity between Roman Iron Age (represented by Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures) and Medieval Age populations [10], [11] thus providing less support to the allochthonous model
Also besides the territory being designated as "Polska" by the western Polanians, it was also designated as "Łęda"by the eastern Lendians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_P ... uote]There is, however, a group of languages, where the exonym for Poland derives from the name of Lendians, a proto-Polish tribe that lived around the confluence of the rivers Vistula and San, in what is now south-eastern Poland. Their name derived probably from the Proto-Polish word lęda, or "scorched land".[3] Not surprisingly, exonyms of this kind are used primarily by the peoples who lived east or south of Poland. Among those exonyms are:
лях (lyakh) used in East Slavic languages. The historical region of Poland on the Belarusian border known as Podlasie derives its name from that East Slavic exonym. Today, Lachy Sądeckie is a name of a small cultural group around Nowy Sącz in southern Lesser Poland. In Polish literature, the word Lachy is used by East Slavic characters as synonyms for "Poles" and "Poland".
Lithuanian Lenkija
Hungarian Lengyelország
Turkish Lehistan (now considered obsolete and replaced by Polonya).[6] The former became the basis for Poland exonyms in a number of other Middle Eastern languages, including:
Armenian Լեհաստան, Lehastan
Persian, Tajik لهستان, Lahestan.
[/quote]


ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#3

Post by ManfredV » 21 Mar 2016, 21:45

Theory Nr 1: "Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees"
Theory Nr2: "Poles existed and lived there since Roman or even Bronze Age"
Sorry guys, but that is totally different from what nearly all respectable and serious historians agree.
It is not clear were the slavic people originally came from and if there was a kind of "proto slavic" tribe or if it was a collective term for different groups.
We don' t have many original sources from that times and unfortunally esp. in 19th and 20th german, polish and russian/soviet "historians" created their own nationalistic and chauvinistic view and published a lot of nonsense.
But usually modern historians believe that there was a emigration of nations in Europe in those times which brought the Slavics west- and southward. A group of tribes /nations with similar culture and language. It is also not clear if there was a "proto polish" nation/tribe or different groups of slavic people who immigrated in these regions. They mixed with others who lived there before and so Polish nation was born around 800 - 1000 AD. Most nations in central Europe are a result of migration movements and mixture. Look at the germans who are a mixture of germanics, celts, slavics and different people from roman empire. Thats not reason to be ashamed. The processes of becoming a nation in medieval times were influenced by a lot of reasons: migration movements, language, culture, religion, sucessful sovereigns, fortune and luck etc.

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#4

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 22 Mar 2016, 02:57

^ That Slavic expansion westward was over ~300 years before the establishment of the Polish state.

The theory that Elbe Slavs played a role in that, assumes an eastward back-migration in the 900s AD.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#5

Post by ManfredV » 22 Mar 2016, 09:25

Of course there were cultural and economic contacts and maybe some Elbe Slaves migrated eastward.But there is no evidence of a greater movement yet. So their influence probably was one part of many others. There were .f.e. also relations to Frankish/east Frankish / german kingdom, but no one would claim Poland was established by Franks/Germans...
The point is: we had migration movements and a lot of cultural, economic, religious relations. But to say it was an Elbe Slavs migration group that established Poland is - lets say - a harzadous theory.
Of course it is correct to ask: were there influences and migration movements and how important were they?

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#6

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 23 Mar 2016, 16:45

ManfredV wrote:Of course there were cultural and economic contacts and maybe some Elbe Slaves migrated eastward.But there is no evidence of a greater movement yet. So their influence probably was one part of many others. There were .f.e. also relations to Frankish/east Frankish / german kingdom, but no one would claim Poland was established by Franks/Germans...
The point is: we had migration movements and a lot of cultural, economic, religious relations. But to say it was an Elbe Slavs migration group that established Poland is - lets say - a harzadous theory.
Of course it is correct to ask: were there influences and migration movements and how important were they?
Recent comparative genetic studies of Polish and other Slavic people show, that Poles are genetically more closely related to their western Slavic neighbours - Lusatian Sorbs (German: Die Sorben) -, than they are to their eastern Slavic neighbours - Ukrainians. The mainstream theory is that Early Slavs had originally lived in Ukraine and then expanded westward into Poland and then Lusatia. But in such case, we should expect Poles to be genetically intermediate between Ukrainians and Sorbs, perhaps closer to Ukrainians. And what is strange is that it's not the case - Poles are significantly more closely related to Sorbs, than to Ukrainians. One possible explanation would be, that after the "original" Slavic westward migraion out of Ukraine, there was another migration, this time in the opposite direction - from Lusatia/Polabia to Poland.

So maybe there really was eastward Slavic back-migration in the 800s-900s (preceded by westward migration in the 400s-700s).

BTW:

One exception to the rule of Poles being more closely related to Sorbs, are Eastern Poles, such as the ones from Wrocław. Poles from Wrocław are more closely related to Ukrainians than to Sorbs. That's because 1/2 of them lived in Kresy before 1939, and many are of Polonized East Slavic origin. However, Poles from pre-1939 Western Poland, as well as these from Central Poland, are more closely related to Sorbs. Generally Poles of West Slavic origin are closer to Sorbs, while Poles descended from Polonized East Slavs are closer to e.g. Ukrainians, etc.

======================

Henryk,

In the Autumn of 2016 samples of ancient DNA from Poznań Śródka cemetery (10th-11th centuries AD) will be published:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cmentarzy ... w_Poznaniu

It is one of the earliest Polish cemeteries with skeletal burials, allowing extraction of DNA. Before Christianization, Pagan Slavs usually practiced cremation - so it will be hard to get sufficient amounts of DNA samples from those periods, as there are no bones. Poznań was - together with Gniezno - one of the most important centers of power of Early Piast Poland. And Ostrów Lednicki is the oldest part of Poznań:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostr%C3%B ... ly_history
The first known fortified settlement (gród) on Ostrów Tumski dates from the 8th or 9th century. In the 10th century the settlement on the island became one of the main political centres of the Piast domains, which in turn formed the hub of the early Polish state. Archaeological work carried out in 1999 revealed that the ducal palace stood on the site now occupied by the Church of the Virgin Mary (west of the cathedral). The palace was joined to a chapel, believed to be the first Christian temple in Poland. It was probably first used by Dobrawa, the wife of Mieszko I, and her Bohemian attendants – Mieszko himself was baptised in 966. (...)
More about this genetic research can be found here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread. ... post142471
966 is a special year in Polish history. The Archaeological Museum in Poznań and the Archaeological Reserve "Genius Loci" will actively participate in commemoration of the 1,050th anniversary of the Baptism of Mieszko I. We are preparing a number of attractions for the inhabitants of Poznań and for guests. (...) These will include: (...) an exposition "The oldest inhabitants of Poznań in the eyes of modern medicine". (...) Thanks to well preserved skeletal remains from the cemetery at Poznań Śródka, as the result of comprehensive research we have obtained a lot of valuable information about people living by the end of the 10th century and in the early 11th century in Poznań. Our research on skeletal remains has been interdisciplinary. We have been carrying out anthropological and identification, odontological, medical-judical, genetic and radiological examinations with use of modern methods of medical imaging (computed tomography), as well as studies in virtual engineering. Modern anthropological methods and professional identification research allows us to reconstruct faces of the past inhabitants of Poznań. In our research on skeletal material specialists from the Medical University and the University of Technology in Poznań participate. (...) Based on research done on skeletal material excavated in Poznań, a professional exposition presenting the results of medical and genetic studies on population inhabiting the Ostrów Tumski of Poznań in the 10th century will be created. This is an amazing opportunity to take a look at people living in a crucial period of Poland's history from the point of view of modern medicine.
As well as here (in English and in Polish):

https://www.ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nau ... anguage=en

http://ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nauki/pr ... anguage=pl

Click the image to enlarge it:
Figlerowicz Research Project.png
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#7

Post by ManfredV » 23 Mar 2016, 17:54

Poles belong more to the west slaves - no wonder they are related to Sorbs, Czech etc. And Poles from the former eastern (no ukrainian) parts of Poland are nearer to East Slavs. No wonder.
Another point: only more ore less great parts of poeple / tribes /nations moved during great migration in Europe, but others stayed. And migrants didn't move into "empty areas", they often met and mixed with other who were there.
Maybe also some Elbe Slavs moved eastward again in 10th century, but only few of them. Most of them stayed and were mixed with migrants from western parts of Germany.
Poles are a mixture of several slavs and others. Germans are more or less (depend of hich area in Germany) a mixture of germanics, celts, slavs, and several guys from other regions of roman empire. English are a mixture of...etc. etc.
But are there evidences that a lot of Elbe slavs went back to "Poland" and played an important role in Poland becoming a nation?
In 10th century, "germans" or more correct Kings of ottonian dynasty and saxonian nobles started to conquer areas east of Elbe. But they didn't kill ore expell the slavs because they needed "subjects". And the Elbe slavs succeded to strike back ("Großer Slawenaufstand" in german). Final conquering and settlement came later. And in 10th century Poles also started to conquer areas of other slav tribes.
So which Elbe Slavs and when they migrated eastward and established Poland?

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#8

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 26 Mar 2016, 17:39

Some of Bronze Age warriors killed in the battle of Tollense (which took place ca. year 1250 BC) were genetically related to modern Poles:

An excerpt from this article:

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/ ... attle-3174

"(...) chemical tracers in the remains suggest that most of the Tollense warriors came from hundreds of kilometers away. The isotopes in your teeth reflect those in the food and water you ingest during childhood, which in turn mirror the surrounding geology—a marker of where you grew up. Retired University of Wisconsin, Madison, archaeologist Doug Price analyzed strontium, oxygen, and carbon isotopes in 20 teeth from Tollense. (...) “The range of isotope values is really large,” he says. “We can make a good argument that the dead came from a lot of different places.” Further clues come from isotopes of another element, nitrogen, which reflect diet. Nitrogen isotopes in teeth from some of the men suggest they ate a diet heavy in millet (...) Ancient DNA could potentially reveal much more: When compared to other Bronze Age samples from around Europe at this time, it could point to the homelands of the warriors as well as such traits as eye and hair color. Genetic analysis is just beginning, but so far it supports the notion of far-flung origins. DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern-day Poland and Scandinavia. “This is not a bunch of local idiots,” says University of Mainz geneticist Joachim Burger. “It’s a highly diverse population.” As University of Aarhus’s Vandkilde puts it: “It’s an army like the one described in Homeric epics, made up of smaller war bands that gathered to sack Troy”—an event thought to have happened fewer than 100 years later, in 1184 B.C.E. That suggests an unexpectedly widespread social organization, Jantzen says. “To organize a battle like this over tremendous distances and gather all these people in one place was a tremendous accomplishment,” he says."

Listen here (20:40 - 21:20):

http://www.sciencemag.org/podcast/podca ... based-life

"(...) What does the archaeological evidence say about where they came from? So from isotopic evidence, chemical composition of the teeth, it looks like some of those people came from the local area, but some of them also came from maybe hundreds of kilometers to the south and east. One archaeologist compared this to Homer actually, and to the attack on Troy, where lots of different warbands came together to fight in one place, a very long way. Ancient DNA evidence is just in the beginning stages of analyses, but the ancient DNA is telling a similar story, that these folks came from pretty far afield and were related to different modern populations, some of them look like modern Poles or Russians, and some of them look like modern Italians. So really, really different in terms of the DNA as well."

More about that battle here:

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.co.u ... attle.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rn_Germany

http://gepris.dfg.de/gepris/OCTOPUS;jse ... showDetail
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

User avatar
henryk
Member
Posts: 2559
Joined: 27 Jan 2004, 02:11
Location: London, Ontario

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#9

Post by henryk » 26 Mar 2016, 19:59

http://www.academia.edu/8348571/Odontol ... iddle_Ages
Another study verifying the continuity of Slavic populations from the Roman Times to the Middle Ages. It compares two Roman Age cultures: Wielbark, from the territory of Poland, and Chernyakhof, from the territory of the Ukraine, with Middle Age P
populations: Western Slav from Poland, and Eastern Slav from Ukraine.
the Wielbark Culture populations are are more similar to the Western Slavic populations, while the Chernjakhov are more similar to the Eastern Slavic populations. Furthermore, populations from the Roman period (Wielbark Culture and Chernjajhov Culture populations) exhibit a very high biological (genetic) similarity to Western Slavic and Eastern Slavic populations. Therefore, we have positively verified the hypothsis concerning the biological continuity of the settlement of the Oder and Vistula river basins at the turn of the Antiquity to the early mediaeval times.

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#10

Post by ManfredV » 26 Mar 2016, 21:52

These studies don't verify that the Poles or other slavs lived there since roman times or longer. But they verify what modern historians and archaeologist state for some years: not all people left the area during european migration movement. Migrants mixed with those who were there before. Modern Poles and other Slav nation like fe. Czechs are mixture of proto-slavic migrants coming in and those others.
History of european nations is much more differentiated than simple explanations.

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#11

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 26 Mar 2016, 22:06

Bronze Age might be still too early / too long ago for either Proto-Germanic or Proto-Slavic speakers.

But some connection with the mysterious "Sea Peoples" is probable - check discussions in these threads:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread. ... post147344

http://historum.com/european-history/10 ... ostcount=2

I will quote some statements from page 5 of that thread in the first link posted above:
The battle took place around 1250 BC (according to radiocarbon dating).

It was apparently a time of major upheavals in many parts of Europe:

"1200 BC - War, Climate Change & Cultural Catastrophe - ABSTRACTS":

http://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/1200BC_abstracts.pdf

Translated quote:

"Fantastic discovery!

In several next days from now I will try to search through available reports, especially seeking information or photographs concerning military items and equipment found at Tollense battlefield. And these military items can be of key importance assuming, that the dating of the site to period BrD or maybe III OEB in chronology by Montelius is correct. I am especially interested in melee weapons.

First of all, we are talking here about a period in which Tumulus cultures were being replaced by Urnfield cultures. It was also the beginning of a revolution in military technology, associated with the beginnings of European swords which could be used for both cutting and stabbing. The question is, were those swords - likely of Reutlingen type - present there? Theoretically it is a bit too far to the north of territories until now considered as their place of origin, but considering the scale of this battle, I would not be surprised. Especially, that some single specimen have been found even in Southern Scandinavia. If we accept the date of 1250 BC, the age is correct.

Another issue are evident climate changes. Climate changes, which in the end culminated in Southern Europe in what is known from written sources as migrations of the Sea Peoples. Today we have no doubts, that what we know as the Sea Peoples was just the last episode of large-scale population movements. Perhaps now we have discovered one of the first episodes of that process. I have always been suggesting that those population movements had originated in areas of modern Czech Republic or Germany. So if what I suppose gets confirmed, it will be an argument supporting my theory. If I find some more details, I will of course share."

Originally posted on this forum (link below) by user Marthinus, who is a professional archaeologist:

Link
Regardless of who or whose ancestors fought there - this discovery is extremely exciting!

===================

There is also a German documentary about that battlefield - but it is at least as old as 2014 (maybe even older), and since 2014 until now scientists have learned a lot of new things about that battle, and re-interpreted some of older conclusions.

Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYofbqCQTCs
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1662
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 19:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#12

Post by Gorque » 26 Mar 2016, 23:37

Some very interesting information. Thanks for the links. :-)

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#13

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 06 Apr 2016, 13:12

Maybe that eastward migration of Elbe Slavs was not a migration, but importing captured prisoners of war by the Piast dynasty:

Translated quote:

"(...) By the end of the first half of the 10th century (no later than ca. year 950) a rapid military expansion of the Piasts into neighbouring territories took place. As the result, the incorporation of the remaining lands of historical Greater Poland took place, preceded by the annihilation of social organization of conquered communities. In place of destroyed strongholds (horizon of catastrophes from that period has been revealed, among others, by strongholds located in south-western Greater Poland), many new small strongholds (castra) were erected, which played different roles (mainly administrative and military ones). Depopulated lands were then re-settled with use of quasi-captive population, captured and imported by the Piasts from Pagan Pomerania as well as from areas of the Veleti Union. That population was settled on peripheries of previously existing concentrations of settlement. As the result a state was organized, which included already all of Greater Poland as well as its immediate hinterlands. People of the time called that state 'the realm of Mieszko' (e.g. Abraham ben Jacob). (...)"

Source:

M. Kara, M. Makohonienko, "Wielkopolska krainą grodów - krajobraz kulturowy kolebki państwa polskiego w świetle nowych ustaleń chronologicznych" ("Greater Poland the land of strongholds - cultural landscape of the cradle of the Polish state in the light of new chronology")

English Abstract: Development of the Early Medieval stronghold settlements in Wielkopolska (Great Poland) connected with the process of Polish state formation has been outlined. The new established chronology of the strongholds based on dendrodates, showed their younger age than it was previously deduced from archaeological chronology. The stronghold architecture was the main feature of the medieval cultural landscape of the region. In the light of historical records, archaeological data and palaeobotanical reconstructions, the Early Medieval Great Poland was a land of strongholds and arable fields.

Keywords: Wielkopolska, Early Medieval period, cultural landscape, stronghold settlements, dendrochronology.

===================

Map of areas where quasi-captive settlement of people captured in Pomerania and Polabia by the Piasts was taking place:
Map Piast.png
Map Piast.png (254.5 KiB) Viewed 2684 times
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#14

Post by ManfredV » 06 Apr 2016, 18:44

Thanks a lot! This seemes to be more reliable and helps to explain what happened when Poland was established as a nation/state in 10. century.

User avatar
henryk
Member
Posts: 2559
Joined: 27 Jan 2004, 02:11
Location: London, Ontario

Re: Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

#15

Post by henryk » 06 Apr 2016, 20:07

But the above migration/importation is very far from Belarus.

Post Reply

Return to “Other eras”