Poland established by Elbe Slavic refugees fleeing eastward from German expansion?

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

It should be noted that some Polish researchers believe that

territories around Oder and Vistula rivers (in present-day Poland) were continuously inhabited by ancestors of Slavs from the Roman Iron Age (0–400 AD), or perhaps even further back in time from the Bronze Age (3200–600 BC) [7] until the Medieval Age (500–1500 AD) [8].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4206425/

It is not clear were the slavic people originally came from and if there was a kind of "proto slavic" tribe or if it was a collective term for different groups. We don' t have many original sources from that times and unfortunally esp. in 19th and 20th german, polish and russian/soviet "historians" created their own nationalistic and chauvinistic view and published a lot of nonsense. But usually modern historians believe that there was a emigration of nations in Europe in those times which brought the Slavics west- and southward. A group of tribes /nations with similar culture and language. (...) not all people left the area during european migration movement. Migrants mixed with those who were there before. Modern Poles and other Slav nation like fe. Czechs are mixture of proto-slavic migrants coming in and those others.
History of european nations is much more differentiated than simple explanations.

An interesting Principal Component Analysis (PCA) comparison of autosomal DNA of three ancient people - Late Bronze Age man named RISE 598, Late Bronze Age woman named RISE 595 and Iron Age woman named RISE 596 - with modern populations. RISE 598 man was buried near Turlojiske, very close to modern Lithuanian-Polish border. The two women were buried near Velika Gruda in Montenegro.

RISE 598 (who lived ca. years 908-485 BC) was similar to modern Poles (this PCA chart places him within the range of modern Polish samples). Also his Y-DNA was R1a, so the same which is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup of Poles. By contrast, samples from Montenegro - RISE 595 and RISE 596 - are not only significantly different from each other (perhaps suggesting migrations of genetically different peoples in that region between the Bronze Age and the Iron Age), but also both are significantly different from samples of modern Montenegrins:

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2016/02 ... se598.html

But what was ethnicity and language of that RISE 598 man from ca. 908-485 BC? I suppose that he could be a West Balt.

Linguists usually agree that Baltic and Slavic languages are closely related and originated from a common Proto-Balto-Slavic ancestral language. Most of linguists also consider Slavic languages to be more closely related to West Baltic than to East Baltic languages.

So it would make sense if Northern (Western + Eastern) Slavs are genetically similar to Balts, especially to West Balts.

Note that East Balts (e.g. Lithuanians and Latvians) originally lived far away from the sea - in the Forest Zone of Russia & Belarus.

East Balts migrated towards the Baltic Sea only later, mixing with Baltic Finns (like Estonians) and with West Balts.

[henryk]

Some Belarusian scholars (for example M. Jezowa, V. Sedov, Perkhavko, Zhuravlev, A. Zalizniak, A. I. Kushniarevich, etc.) have proposed, that during the 10th century there was a large-scale eastward migration of Polabian-Sorbian Slavic refugees from what is now East Germany towards what is now Belarus, triggered in 928 by the beginning of German/Saxon expansion into Slavic lands between the Elbe and the Oder (campaigns led by Henry the Fowler and Otto the Great). According to many linguists, Belarusian language exhibits a higher degree of similarity with Dravano-Polabian, Upper Sorbian, Lower Sorbian and Kashubian, than do other East Slavic languages. Linguist Andrei Zalizniak also mentioned possible North-West Slavic (Lechitic) connection to the Novgorodian dialect, and Lechitic influences in the Belarusian language were also discovered by Zhuravlev's monograph in which he obtained large samples of 2,000-3,000 for modern Slavic languages (his main area of interest is comparative linguistics - a link to his book): http://www.inslav.ru/images/stories/pdf ... ravlev.pdf

http://www.montenet.org/history/prehys.htm

The Slavic colonization of the Balkan peninsula, thus, occurred during VI century and probably finished by the middle of VII century. It is believed that predecessors of Montenegrins came from the region (Polablje) between the Baltic Sea and the present-day city of Hanover, Germany (D.Zivkovic, Istorija Crnogorskog Naroda, 1989; R.Rotkovic, Odakle su dosli Crnogorci, 1992; V. Nikcevic, Crnogorski Jezik, 1993). However, Montenegrin predecessors, (known as the Velet and Odobritei tribes) did not come from Germany, since the Germans occupied these territories after Montenegrin predecessors had moved to Adriatic (R.Rotkovic, ibid). Dr Rotkovic collected around 800 toponyms in Montenegro, relating to settlements, rivers, lakes and mountains in Polablje.

Based on the Belarusian theory, there should be a Belarusian connection also with the Montenegrins and other Southern Slavs.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Henryk,

This is extremely interesting - this article was published in February 2016:

"Migrations from 1500 years ago influenced the shape of modern Europe" (in Polish):

http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/ ... uropy.html

This excerpt deserves to be quoted so I've translated it:

"(...) Polish archaeologists long thought, that between the Migration Period and the Middle Ages a total collapse of settlement took place - areas of modern Poland were supposed to be abandoned by previous population, and it was thought that only after some time Slavs came from the east and re-settled the area.

But large-scale archeological studies conducted during the last few decades modify this picture, especially in case of Greater Poland [Wielkopolska region].

Archaeologists point out especially to discoveries from Konarzewo. There they have managed to find the largest up-to-now in Poland number of surviving dwellings, which falsifies the claim, that these areas were abandoned during the Migration Period. (...) Constructions are from the 5th and the 6th centuries. They are connected with people representing Przeworsk culture.

"Przeworks culture during its existence was an entity with an undoubtedly germanic cultural model, but it doesn't mean, that it was formed exclusively by Germanic population" - says prof. Michałowski

Prof. Michałowski cannot provide an explicit answer to the question who inhabited multiple settlements flourishing in Greater Poland in the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries. Material culture - excavated items - indicate germanic influences, "but we don't know what was really their ethnic identity - most likely they just considered themselves to be locals, born in that place, and desiring to live there until their death" - concludes prof. Michałowski.

It is thought that Slavs appeared in areas of present-day Poland in the 2nd half of the 6th century or in the 7th century.

Conclusions of prof. Michałowski are supported by findings of a team of scientists who are members of the research Project "Migration Period between Odra and Vistula" (LINK to project's website), directed by prof. Alexander Bursche.

These scientists have already established by now, that in the mid-1st millennium a total disappearance of human settlement did NOT take place in the territory of present-day Poland. According to this research team, the population adhering to germanic cultural traditions, which was present in the territory of present-day Poland during the Migration Period, stayed and became assimilated with the Slavs. (...)"

So it seems that those were settlements of the "Lugiorum Nomen" (the federation of the Lugii tribes):

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugiowie

Lugiowie, Ligiowie (łac. Lugii, Lygii, Lugiones, gr. Lougoi) – lud indoeuropejski, którego pochodzenie oraz skład etniczny jest niepewny. Mogła być to federacja różnych plemion zamieszkująca już przed naszą erą i w pierwszych wiekach naszej ery górne dorzecze Odry i Wisły, a więc teren dzisiejszej południowej i środkowej Polski, a także podkarpackie tereny zachodniej Ukrainy. Genetycznie pochodzili zapewne w głównej mierze z lokalnych grup ludności używających języków staroeuropejskich lub indoeuropejskich (kultury łużycka i pomorska), uległych celtyckim wpływom kulturowym (nieliczni na ziemiach polskich Celtowie nie mogli stanowić znaczniejszego substratu etnicznego) i zgermanizowanych[1].

Those people could be culturally germanic, but they were mostly of Pre-Germanic - including Celtic - origin.

The ethnonym "Lugii" itself is Celtic, as explained here:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?show ... try1510475

[henryk]

Henryk,

"(...) Polish archaeologists long thought, that between the Migration Period and the Middle Ages a total collapse of settlement took place - areas of modern Poland were supposed to be abandoned by previous population, and it was thought that only after some time Slavs came from the east and re-settled the area.
..........
It is thought that Slavs appeared in areas of present-day Poland in the 2nd half of the 6th century or in the 7th century.

These scientists have already established by now, that in the mid-1st millennium a total disappearance of human settlement did NOT take place in the territory of present-day Poland. According to this research team, the population adhering to germanic cultural traditions, which was present in the territory of present-day Poland during the Migration Period, stayed and became assimilated with the Slavs. (...)"

So it seems that those were settlements of the "Lugiorum Nomen" (the federation of the Lugii tribes):

I repeat from the quote in my first message:

Several hypotheses have been advanced regarding the origin and early migrations of Slavs, of which two - autochthonous and allochthonous - have predominated. According to the autochthonous hypothesis, territories around Oder and Vistula rivers (in present-day Poland) were continuously inhabited by ancestors of Slavs from the Roman Iron Age (0–400 AD), or perhaps even further back in time from the Bronze Age (3200–600 BC) [7] until the Medieval Age (500–1500 AD) [8]. In contrast, the allochthonous theory suggests the discontinuity of settlements between Roman Iron Age and Medieval Age in the territory of present-day Poland. Allochthonists hypothesize that the Slavs originated in the Pripet and Middle Dnieper River basins in modern-day Ukraine, from where they migrated to the west and south of Europe in the beginning of 5th century AD and inhabited the lands of present-day Poland, which was previously occupied by Germanic tribes during the Roman Iron Age [9]. However, morphological analyses of skeletal materials from present-day Poland have suggested a continuity between Roman Iron Age (represented by Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures) and Medieval Age populations [10], [11] thus providing less support to the allochthonous model

I am surprised that the Project originating the data ignores that there is an autochthonous theory with many supporters and much research support. The link to the Project states it started in 2012, to finish in 2017. Yet it reads like it has made ground breaking discoveries, without reference to other previous autochthonous theory research.

[ManfredV]

These "either or" theories thinking doesn't really fit.
Former idea of "migrants came into empty areas and other people before left" isn't true. Not for the slavs and not for the germanics. Today, most historians and archaeologists agree that there were migration movements in Europe and mixing with others who stayed. These results show what happened in present day Poland. We also have results that show what happenned in present day Germany.
Probably, Poles and Germans are nearer related than nationalists on both sides wanted to accept for a long time.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Henryk,

There are Italian scientists led by Dr. Piero Favero, who are exploring links between various groups historically called Venedi/Veneti etc. (this includes also the Slavs, who have been called like this by their Germanic-speaking neighbours - Old English: Winedas, Old Norse: Vindr, German: Wenden, Winden, Danish: Vendere and Swedish: Vender).

Check these links:

http://venetianambassadors.org/projects ... c-origins/

https://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Avai ... rigins.pdf

Favero believes that all Venedi/Veneti - including those at the Adriatic, those in Brittany and Slavic Wends - are related to each other and have a common origin, which could be in the Middle Bronze Age Lusatian culture of present-day Poland (according to Favero). He is planning to test ancient DNA from bones of Adriatic Venetic, who settled in Italy during the Late Bronze Age. Over 230 Late Bronze Age burials of Veneti have been discovered by an Italian archaeologist Elisa Perego:

"Final Bronze Age and Social Change in Veneto: Group Membership, Ethnicity and Marginality":

https://www.academia.edu/5481667/Final_ ... arginality

Here are some of the goals of Favero's research:

What do we know already on Venetian migrations?

Interview with Dr Piero Favero.

Dr PF: Linguistic studies of Françoise Bader (University of Sorbonne) and Jadranka Gvozdanović (University of Heidelberg) show cultural unit of ancient peoples with name Venetics who settled in the Baltic region, and the Atlantic and the Adriatic coasts. Genetic study of haplotypes in these populations confirm a common root.

VA: What is the advantage of discovering the origin of Veneti in the dispute between autochthony hypothesis and hypothesis of migration?

Dr PV: The scientific interest is relevant because it could highlight an important part played by Veneti in building the cultural substrate of much of Europe.

Genetic research on the three most common target areas, Atlantic, Adriatic and Baltic coasts, can be organized in steps:

1) A preliminary study based on a review of scientific literature and analysis of test results of haplogroups already stored in databases.

2) Comparing these data with those gathered by ancient history experts and anthropologists.

3) DNA testing focused on geographic micro environments with populations already identified for significant and reliable features.

4) Extension of tests on the bones of the first Christianized Venetians to be subjected to burial (before Christianization the Venetics were subjected to burning and so their DNA would be wasted).

5) Extension of this research to other areas involved (for example Northern Anatolia).

It seems that he considers the Lusatian culture as "Urheimat" of Venedi (see his map linked below):

http://venetianambassadors.org/uploads/ ... -cover.png

The Lusatian culture existed during ca. 1350 BC - 400 BC, in the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. It later transformed into Middle Iron Age Pomeranian culture (which emerged from one of sub-groups of the Lusatian culture). Later Pomeranian culture was replaced by cultures which are considered Germanic by many archeologists (i.e. Wielbark, Przeworsk and some other cultures).

The most famous fortified settlement of the Lusatian culture was Biskupin.

Here a documentary in English:

[henryk]

Thank you, Peter k, for the topic and the links. Interesting research. I am surprised that Favero's study ignores the connection between language and ethnicity: https://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Avai ... rigins.pdf. Language is particularly useful in determining timelines of migrations. It is considered in:
https://www.academia.edu/5481667/Final_ ... arginality

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

I have recently bought 2011 book "Archeologia Polski wczesnośredniowiecznej" by Andrzej Buko.

It seems, that there is also an English language edition - and it is available online in PDF, here:

http://brego-weard.com/lib/ns/The_Archa ... Discov.pdf

Some of the most recent discoveries from last few years aren't mentioned in this book, though.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Interview with prof. Figlerowicz, the leading geneticist of the "Piast dynasty and society" interdisciplinary research project:

Original in Polish: http://www.naukaonline.pl/nasze-teksty/ ... ach-skryte

Google translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ach-skryte

More about this project (in English): https://www.ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nau ... anguage=en

What actually are they testing?: http://s4.postimg.org/cnzq9ygcd/Piast_realm.png

Anthrogenica discussion: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread. ... post194287

[henryk]

http://www.thenews.pl/1/11/Artykul/2816 ... uote]Slavs lived in Morocco in Middle Ages, archaeologists find
Polish radio 25.11.2016 13:09

Polish scientists have found proof that Slavs lived in Morocco hundreds of years ago during an expedition to the country, public broadcaster TVP Info said on Thursday.

Photo: graphicstock.com

Archaeologists from Szczecin, in Poland's northwest, and Poznań in Poland's west, found ceramics, dated back to the middle-ages, in Morocco decorated similarly to ceramics from a similar period which were uncovered in Wolin, in Poland's northwest.

The archeologists say there is no doubt that Slavs used to be settled in the Rif mountain in Morocco.

Katarzyna Meissner of the Institute of Anthropology and Ethnology in Poznań, said research would be conducted to narrow down the location were a Slavonic village might have been located. (vb/rg)
[/quote] I presume these were Pomeranian Slavs. But maybe Elbe Slavs.