Biggest battles in Africa

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Karwats
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#31

Post by Karwats » 03 Jul 2004, 23:15

14. The above were a few examples of the aggressive way in which the anti-communist forces maintained an 800km defensive front, in anticipation of an OAU-inspired political solution. But with the inability of the OAU an accomplished fact, the RSA forces, except for a limited number of protective forces in South Angola, had to withdraw by 22 January 1976.

15. The allied FNLA/Unita forces supported by South African forces could have conquered the whole of Angola, but Dr. Savimbi insisted that he was only interested in controlling his traditional area because he was determined to reach a settlement with the MPLA to the advantage of Angola.
Hello Soldier

See press article from link in previous post.

Below is excerpt from book "South Africa's Border war 1966-1989.

"By this time (mid December 1975) the South African cabinet had allready decided to with draw from Angola,and in fact in mid-November a formation known as 101 Task force had been formed at Rundu and placed under the able Lt-Genl Andre' van Deventer tp prepare for an orderly pull out.There was nothing else to be done. Luanda could still be taken,but a force of 1500 South African Infantry would be needed and casualties could run high which was totally unacceptable. In addition van Deventer had expressed serious reservations about the ability of the SADF's logistical systems-withered after 37 years of peace-to sustain any further escalation in the war,and in any case American support was fading fast."
The objectives were:defeat the MPLA,because it movemment was communist and a problem for Sud Africa.
Not really correct. South Africas problem was with SWAPO-the terrorist organisation in South West Africa. Fighting between MPLA/Fapla and the Cubans was because Angola was giving bases and support to Swapo. Most of the Operations: Reindeer,Sceptic,Protea,Askari etc. started with fighting Swapo and then involved either Fapla and/or Cubans.

I will ask my father about the Battles you mentioned and if you want some more answers I will pass them on.
It will have to wait for awhile though-he has left for holiday today in Mozambique (Vilancula/San Martino) :D 8) and will be gone for 3 weeks.

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#32

Post by Soldier » 04 Jul 2004, 01:04

You said:

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Luanda could still be taken,but a force of 1500 South African Infantry would be needed and casualties could run high which was totally unacceptable
Then you are accepting that the militar factor was important in the sudafrican defeat.Sudafrica lost that war because they did not have external support and they did not accept the risk of sent more troops to Angola,because ,they did not have the american help and with the forces in Angola they could not win the battle.



I send you a cuban post about Angola in spanish,sorry but you can translate it.

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Ver arriba. Teniente, nadie se retira "porque quiere", sino porque lo obligan. El avance hacia el sur se acompaño de varios encuentros donde se derrota de nuevo al SADF y la UNITA. Por ejemplo, por Sumbe a principios de enero de 1976 fue rechazado un ataque enemigo, el 15 de enero otro por Massango, la toma en enero de Medunda, Cela, Morro de Tongo, Santa Comba, Mussende, Calucinga, la toma en febrero de Huambo, Lobito, Benguela, Cuito Bie, Caala, Mocamedes, un batallón enemigo cercado y aniquilado completo por Quicombo, en marzo la toma de Lubango, Cubango, Matala, Cuito Cuanavale.... 

Para esta fecha la retirada de los sudafricanos ya era a toda prisa, pero los cubanos les pisaban los talones (a pesar de los puentes destruídos y otras justificaciones que pones a favor de los sudafricanos). El 27 de marzo sale el último soldado sudafricano por la frontera en Calueque, el 1 de abril ya allí llegan las tropas cubanas. 

Hay testimonios concretos. Por ejemplo, el General Alvaro Lopez Miera cuenta cómo en 1976 destrozó una batería de obuses de 140mm sudafricanos con ayuda de las BM-21 por Morro de Tongo y los obligó a retirarse (los cubanos al tomar el lugar y al interrogar a un prisionero sudafricano, comprobaron grandes bajas al SADF en este caso), lo mismo se repitió días después por Santa Comba. El General Néstor López Cuba dirigió una columna de tanques que en marzo de 1976 avanzaba hasta la frontera y tuvo varios combates. 


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#33

Post by Karwats » 05 Jul 2004, 23:32

I didn't say it it was a quote from the book.

But as I said the decision to withdraw was based on Political grounds and not military ones.
At the time of the battle, the South African Government had already made the decision to withdraw its forces from Angola in view of the lack of support South Africa and Unita were receiving from the West.
By this time (mid December 1975) the South African cabinet had allready decided to withdraw from Angola,and in fact in mid-November a formation known as 101 Task force had been formed at Rundu and placed under the able Lt-Genl Andre' van Deventer tp prepare for an orderly pull out.
but Dr. Savimbi insisted that he was only interested in controlling his traditional area because he was determined to reach a settlement with the MPLA to the advantage of Angola.
Diplomatically, MPLA rulers scored a major success when, spurred on by Nigeria, the Marxist regime of Angola was endorsed by the OAU (Organisation of African Unity). This decision prompted the South Africans to grudgingly pull out their forces just as three task forces (Fox-Bat, X-Ray and Zulu) were within reach of Luanda. Operation 'Savannah' was over. It had cost the South Africans 29 soldiers killed in action.Although beaten in the field, MPLA had won a major diplomatic success and soon, Angola became the 27th member of the OAU as UNITA forces withdrew to the south-east of the country. However, South Africa provided active support to Savimbi's fighters as Luanda's regime assisted and provided bases to SWAPO (South West Africa's People Organisation), a guerrilla movement it had created to wage unconventional warfare in South West Africa.
Por ejemplo, el General Alvaro Lopez Miera cuenta cómo en 1976 destrozó una batería de obuses de 140mm sudafricanos con ayuda de las BM-21
I admit my spanish is a bit rusty but this reads more or less..

For example General Alvaro Lopes Miera reports he destroyed a Battery of South African 140mm guns with BM 21's in 1976 ????

Battle of Ebo-see comments about Cubans
http://www.netcentral.co.uk/~cobus/32BAT.htm

Excellent website pics and maps.

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#34

Post by Soldier » 06 Jul 2004, 01:27

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For example General Alvaro Lopes Miera reports he destroyed a Battery of South African 140mm guns with BM 21's in 1976
Is ok is fine.

Then you accept that the sudafrican withdraw(left) from 1976 had militar and political factors or you think that the true reasons were only political?

Militar:They did not send more troops because the could lost more men and they didnt want to pay that cost of war.Because with those force in Angola 3.300 men and namibians,they could not win,and they were stopped near Luanda.If they wanted to win they have to send more soldiers but they didint that they withdraw(left) from Angola,for me that was defeat.These are militar reasons,indirects,but reasons.

Political:They didnt have american help

Sory but my english is terrible.

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By this time (mid December 1975) the South African cabinet had allready decided to with draw from Angola,and in fact in mid-November a formation known as 101 Task force had been formed at Rundu and placed under the able Lt-Genl Andre' van Deventer tp prepare for an orderly pull out.There was nothing else to be done. Luanda could still be taken,but a force of 1500 South African Infantry would be needed and casualties could run high which was totally unacceptable. In addition van Deventer had expressed serious reservations about the ability of the SADF's logistical systems-withered after 37 years of peace-to sustain any further escalation in the war,and in any case American support was fading fast." 
But check this post if you read it you find militar reasons read among lines.They could take Luanda but they didnt that,because the didnt want to accept the casualties of that action,the were not prepare for the high cost of defeat to the cubans and MPLA and to take Luanda then they left Angola.The left the battlefield and they failed in their mission:destroy the MPLA.
THAT WAS A DEFEAT NOT A BIG DEFEAT BUT WITHOUT DOUBTS A DEFEAT.

An advice:There is not an army so close to the victory and leave the battlefield only for political reason.

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#35

Post by Soldier » 06 Jul 2004, 03:19

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Luanda could still be taken,but a force of 1500 South African Infantry would be needed and casualties could run high which was totally unacceptable.


They are accepting that they lost the war(among lines) they put a sudafrican force of 3.000 men in Angola but that force was not enough to defeat the MPLA and they were stopped if they wanted Luanda,they had to put more men in combat,but they didnt want to do that,and they didnt that.
So they left Angola,because they didnt have support and they needed mre troops,but Sudafrica was not ready for that decision.

1.They didnt want more causualties
2.They diidnt have help(american)

For me the militar factor was important in the sudafrican defeat.
Check the cuban sources not only the sudafrican sources.

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#36

Post by Karwats » 06 Jul 2004, 20:16

1.They didnt want more causualties
2.They diidnt have help(american)

For me the militar factor was important in the sudafrican defeat.
Check the cuban sources not only the sudafrican sources.
1. Casualties-Just keep in mind the South African idea of high casualties was 10-20 men for an entire operation.
2. American help. This was political support,not arms,aircraft or troops.

I do not think there was a "defeat" maybe one or 2 reversals. Also the South Africans did not retreat they withdrew in good order-under orders. A short while later they were back in Southern Angola and occupied large parts of it until 1980's.

I try and read the Cuban side as well,but my Spanish is also not too good so it is dificult :D

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#37

Post by Soldier » 06 Jul 2004, 22:54

In the North of Angola in 1975.There were 2 forces:FNLA and the Mobutu Army(Zaire).

But I read that with the FNLA,there were many mercenaries from Portugal.
Do you have any idea about it?

How many mercenaries were there with the FNLA in 1975?

Pdta:Be honest with me.

Do you understand my english? .Tell me your opinion.

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#38

Post by Karwats » 08 Jul 2004, 00:17

I have read many books that mention "portuguese mercenaries" with both FNLA and UNITA.

I cannot remenber any numbers though. One book I read a long time ago
was "The Portuguese War in Africa" by Al J. Venter. I seem to recall he had something about mercenaries with FNLA.

The books I own only mention "some" mercenaries so no numbers. They also do not specify if these were ex territorial troops like the "Flechas" or people from Portugal.

My later books on Angola- 1994-1996- mention "white" mercenaries fighting with Unita, but these were only seen after they had been killed so it was not possible to tell if they were Portugues or not.

Your English is fine. Nao Problema.
Better than my Spanish.

"Habla espanol, un poquito,si????" :D

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Cuito

#39

Post by Soldier » 10 Jul 2004, 03:09

Karwats:I want to know you opinion about it:
Who won the battle of Cuito Cuanavale(Politicals and militars terms),the cubans or the sudafricans?

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#40

Post by Karwats » 10 Jul 2004, 23:57

Hi Soldier

First it was not only a South African-Cuban fight. There where Fapla,Unita and SWATF forces involved.

Also there was never a battle at Cuito Cuanavale, Tumpo 1,2, and 3 at the Lomba river was close but not at Cuito.

For the Battles in Operations Modular/Hooper in 1987/88 this was a massive military victory for the SADF.

A South African force of between 1500-3500 troops,depending on time had fought of 5 Fapla Brigades with Cuban support advancing on Mavinga wiping out 2 of the Brigades.

Confirmed losses were:
SADF/SWATF 31 KIA, 90 WIA
3 Tanks disabled/damaged in minefields
4 Ratels knocked out
2 Mirage & 1 Bosbok shot down

Fapla/Cubans
4768 KIA, WIA unknown,+- 200 POW
94 Tanks destroyed/captured
+- 400 APC's & Logistics vehicles destroyed or captured
8 Mig 23,4 Mig 21, 8 (some say 7) Mi 8/Mi 24 shot down
Various radar,engineering and SA8/9 systems destroyed or captured.

The numbers speak for themselves.

Politically this was a nightmare for the MPLA as Unita could effectively operate all over the country after this.
After this the SADF and Fapla would not really clash again,most of the fighting to come was between SWAPO and the SADF/SWATF. Apart from a battle at Techipa/Caleque between the SADF 61 Mech under Cmdt Mike Muller and the Cuban 50th Division. Losses here was SADF 2 KIA and Cubans +- 300 KIA.

Approximately 2 years later the war would be over.

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#41

Post by CoffeeCake » 11 Jul 2004, 00:57

Andy H wrote:Anyone know the numbers involved in the Algerian war of Independence?

Andy H
I think this thread may be of interest

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 04&start=0

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#42

Post by Soldier » 11 Jul 2004, 22:18

I am not agree with you, i know that the operations Modular and Hooper were a defeat for the MPLA,but not for the cubans,they didnt fight in that battle,they only participed in Cuito when the sudafricans almost took that town. But check these sources.

http://www.rickard.karoo.net/articles/wars_namibia.html


http://www.geocities.com/sadfbook/7sai.htm

And chek this

Even when the order to withdraw came through, it was still a bit of a shock. We had being listening to VOICE OF AMERICA, and sort of knew what was going on, but we were very disillusioned none the less. We knew that with out us UNITA would get it the next time, the main question was "What the fuck was this all about?" Here we were 800 km into Angola, in the middle of a war, which we could have won, had SA Government made even a slightly greater commitment of troops and equipment. As far as we were concerned we could do it without the SAAF, as up until then we had no air support at all. It would have helped to make things easier, but was not necessary. We knew they had more forces to the North, but even a quarter of the SADF’s current military power, would have wiped them off the face of the earth. In fact we could have done it back in ‘78, but the backing was not there. Talk about bitter, what a fucking waste.

They could not win the war,he said

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#43

Post by Karwats » 11 Jul 2004, 22:59

they only participed in Cuito when the sudafricans almost took that town. But check these sources.
What battle for Quito???? :roll:
Why would we want to take the down when it was in range of the G5's under constant bombardment???If I remember correctly the airfield was even shut down,all flying was done from Menongue.

From Genl. Geldenhuys: "Cuito Cuanavale?? Why would you want to take Cuito,it is on the wrong side of an obstacle (the river), anybody who wants to take an objective on the wrong side of a natural obstacle has no idea of this business."

The Cubans maintain there was a battle for Cuito the SADF say no there was not, I believe the SADF.

As for last quote.

I agree with some of it. Had we put in all our conventional forces we could have conquered Angola-not just the South,the whole country. MPLA,Cubans,East Germans and Russians included. But what then?????
Remember this was 1988, South Africa was possibly the most hated country on earth,do you think the UN would have let us keep Angola ?? I think not. Would the Russians or other Warsaw pact have sent soldiers,possibly. Would Nato have helped us-no. So what choice did we have?? Fight a limited war and give Unita the credit.

In this war as in all wars,it is always politics and tactics. Politics almost always win out over military tactics.

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#44

Post by Soldier » 12 Jul 2004, 01:25

But then.Why the sudafricans withdrew from Angola?

Why the sudafricans left Namibia in hands of the Swapo?

Look at the political reality:The MPLA is still in power,Namibia is of the Swapo and in Sudafrica doesnt exist the apartheid and The Unita was defeated in 2002.

Maybe Sudafrica could win in the military field but in the political field it lost the battle.

Why if Sudafrica won the battle,it left Angola and after Angola,it left Nambia?

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#45

Post by Karwats » 12 Jul 2004, 08:44

But then.Why the sudafricans withdrew from Angola?
Objectives for the operation were achieved and Unita was still safe in the South east. Also new threat was now to the west with Cubans coming south from Xangongo-there small battle at Techipa.

South West, that was part of 435 UN resolution, Cubans out of Angola and South Africans out of South West Africa,all politics not military at all.
Maybe Sudafrica could win in the military field but in the political field it lost the battle.
We didn't lose the political battle my friend we lost the political war.
C'est la Guerre. Today we don't have Apartheid but we have a Communist goverment and our Army is a joke.

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