Night fighting

[distatti]

Hello, everyone!
I am new comer on this forum...and I want you (the management and the participants to this forum) to help me out in following matter. I am very interested in the Winter War ('39-'40), especially in the night training and operations wadged by the Finnish Night Unit - "Verenimija" (Vampires) during this conflagration. I saw that CanKiwi2 detain important reference related to this unit. I ask him and anyone who believe that can help me, to contact me at: distatti@yahoo.com Thank you in advance!

[JTV]

Hello, everyone!
I am new comer on this forum...and I want you (the management and the participants to this forum) to help me out in following matter. I am very interested in the Winter War ('39-'40), especially in the night training and operations wadged by the Finnish Night Unit - "Verenimija" (Vampires) during this conflagration. I saw that CanKiwi2 detain important reference related to this unit. I ask him and anyone who believe that can help me, to contact me at: distatti@yahoo.com

Hi, welcome to forum. I have kind of been expecting (fearing) for this to happen sooner or later. Did you notice the "what if" part in the topic of that particular discussion? - it refers to the fact that the information written under is anything but historically accurate and basically fantasy which is showcasing number of technological advances, which were or were about to be in early states of development around the world at that time. I'm afraid you are just one of the many who will make this mistake of assuming that the information there is facts, since this is a history forum.

Finland had no such unit or such equipment during World War 2. While the writer obviously knows this best, I assume that in this case the inspiration for this part originates from 1st German infra-red rifle sight vision system "Vampir", which the Germans introduced in small-scale with sturmgewehr 44 around year 1945. This German night vision system was never used by Finnish military.

Finnish World War 2 era night fighting equipment were flare guns - nothing more. The first infra-red night vision system in Finnish use was US "20,000 volt Set No. 1" (which had been introduced to use of US Army around year 1950), Finnish Defence Forces tested this system by having 11 rifles M/39 equipped with this night vision system around 1960 - 1961.

BTW: I am pretty sure it would have been best to post your question to that particular thread that inspired your interest or as a completely separate thread. This thread of discussion is for the quiz. I assume that the forum staff will transfer this a its correct place.

Jarkko

[Juha Tompuri]

distatti, welcome to AHF

BTW: I am pretty sure it would have been best to post your question to that particular thread that inspired your interest or as a completely separate thread. This thread of discussion is for the quiz. I assume that the forum staff will transfer this a its correct place.

Yep, done.

Regards, Juha

[CanKiwi2]

distatti, welcome to AHF

BTW: I am pretty sure it would have been best to post your question to that particular thread that inspired your interest or as a completely separate thread. This thread of discussion is for the quiz. I assume that the forum staff will transfer this a its correct place.

Yep, done.

Regards, Juha

Thx Juha

And yes, that was one of my fears as well but it was decided that the moderators could handle these as they came up. My worst fear of course was that the serious historians might take exception to my little fantasy appearing in this forum - but hopefully, apart from the odd bit of confusion, it entertains rather than annoys

....... Nigel

[JTV]

..And yes, that was one of my fears as well but it was decided that the moderators could handle these as they came up.

Unfortunate weak point of that plan is that the resulting discussion does not necessarily take place on this forum. I have already seen one sample of this. The same fictional night vision system got introduced in another forum last June as a historical item and by someone who I consider a respected scholar of military history. Apparently you succeeded making the whole thing so convincing, that it fools even experts.

Jarkko

[distatti]

... again, hello everyone!

Thanks Jarkko, Juha and Nigel! To my disappointment, indeed Verenemija unit is/was just a fantasy as I've expected from the beginning ... but I did not lose nothing trying to find out. Actually, the thing that caught my attention was the concept of a unit trained to execute exclusive night operations. I saw that as a doctrinal concept. I did not pay any attention to the technical capabilities (night vision systems etc.) as you probably understood, but only to the (ipoteticaly from now) operational capabilities. Sorry if I did bother!
Regards,

diStatti

[St.George]

By " execute exclusive night operations" I think V. Linnas book "unknown soldier" describes it well in the episod where the regiments makes an outflank march in the forest during the night in order to make a motti and the difficulties.

Generally going back to my own military service (In Sweden) a recon patrol scouts the rout a head and marks up the path with white fabrics. During the night movement its extremely important that the men keep close distant so no one becomes derailed. Also sound disciplines I extremely important. I would be surprised if this difference allot from the Finnish WWII night operations.

[CanKiwi2]

..And yes, that was one of my fears as well but it was decided that the moderators could handle these as they came up.

Unfortunate weak point of that plan is that the resulting discussion does not necessarily take place on this forum. I have already seen one sample of this. The same fictional night vision system got introduced in another forum last June as a historical item and by someone who I consider a respected scholar of military history. Apparently you succeeded making the whole thing so convincing, that it fools even experts.

Jarkko

Urk! It's not the first time it's happened either (I've also had a few enquiries on where you can train in the KKT martial arts system I mentioned back near the start). I think I should take these as compliments - an alternative history that's so convincing it fools both readers and even the experts is ...... I'm not quite sure how to put it. Satisfying from the viewpoint of the writer because I was aiming at "real" plausibility (more or less he says, with tongue in cheek) , and a bit worrying in terms of "warping" Finnish history indelibly for those who don't know it so well and who miss the "What If" disclaimer. I think I better start adding a disclaimer at the start of each Post!!!!!

Nigel

[CanKiwi2]

... again, hello everyone!

Thanks Jarkko, Juha and Nigel! To my disappointment, indeed Verenemija unit is/was just a fantasy as I've expected from the beginning ... but I did not lose nothing trying to find out. Actually, the thing that caught my attention was the concept of a unit trained to execute exclusive night operations. I saw that as a doctrinal concept. I did not pay any attention to the technical capabilities (night vision systems etc.) as you probably understood, but only to the (ipoteticaly from now) operational capabilities. Sorry if I did bother!
Regards,

diStatti

No worries. Actually, the content is all taken from WW2, albeit disparate sources which I combined, wrapped up together and moved to 1939/1940. The gun system is indeed the 1st German infra-red rifle sight vision system "Vampir", which the Germans introduced on a small-scale with the sturmgewehr 44 assault rifle around year 1945 as Jarkko advised (see http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/experimental-prototypes-research-in-the-reich/vampir-zg-1229-on-stg-44-assault-rifle-sturmgewehr/) for a few more details on this. See also this link: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/german-infrared-night-vision-devices-infrarot-scheinwerfer.htm

The infrared binoculars are actually the Ferro 51 GEN 0 binoculars with infrared light source, developed from the companies AEG, De Oude Delft und Eltro (Zeiss – Group) in 1950′s and used by German and Swiss army forces (see http://www.nightvision.lv/night-vision/).

The Matilda tanks and the whole thing with flickering searchlights and the associated combat unit comes from the British Army Canal Defence Light project (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_Defence_Light) and a few different articles on this and the background to it like this one - http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/05/wwii-strobe-t-1/. The pieces on night vision adapation were taken from an article on the early use of night vision equipment by the USAF.

For night operations, I used "Soviet Night Operations in World War II" by Claude Ronald Sasso as a guide, combined with a few very brief mentions of Finnish night movement techniques in different books - very much as described by St George. Where I got into night fighting tactics in attacking German forces and the units with night movement and night fighting expertise later in WW2, it was largely lifted from this book.

All that aside, from the descriptions of the fighting, particularly in the areas other than the Karelian Isthmus, when taken together with the brief daylight hours of a northern winter, one has to assume that a great deal of movement at night was undertaken by Finnish Army units. I've also read brief mentions that later in the Winter War, the constant threat of Soviet air attack meant that movements on the Isthmus were largely undertaken at night wherever possible.

Hope that helps..........Nigel

[St.George]

Pajaris night attacks during the battle of Tolvajärvi might also be of interest in this thread.

[Juha Tompuri]

I think I should take these as compliments - an alternative history that's so convincing it fools both readers and even the experts

Yes, well written

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

Generally going back to my own military service (In Sweden) a recon patrol scouts the rout a head and marks up the path with white fabrics. During the night movement its extremely important that the men keep close distant so no one becomes derailed. Also sound disciplines I extremely important. I would be surprised if this difference allot from the Finnish WWII night operations.

That souds pretty much the same as I remember from my military service.
We also used piece of white cloth (towel etc) attached at behind of our rucksacks so that one could better see the guy marching before you.

Regards, Juha

[JTV]

To be exact my earlier statement about Finnish troops not having more than flare guns during World War 2 was bit inaccurate, but I didn't want to go to details since I didn't have my books at that time.

Finnish Army did issue one sort of night sight and even in reasonably large numbers. This night sight system was developed for Maxim M/32-33 medium machinegun and introduced in year 1941. It used standard (old fashioned) 4.5 volt flashlight battery for creating two illuminated points for aiming. One of these two was attached to machineguns normal (iron) rear sight and the another came with new front sight of its own, which was attached to water jacket with the battery by using a clamp going around the water jacket. Valtion Kivääritehdas (State Rifle Factory, VKT) manufactured 1,150 of these night sight systems for Finnish Army. Actual experiences for troops issued with them proved this system too delicate and its suitability for combat use quite questionable. Hence after the war all remaining were gathered off from troops and scrapped. Information, instuctions drawing and photo showing this night sight system can be found from "Sotilaskäsiaseet Suomessa 1918 - 1988" by Palokangas, part 2 page 449 - 450. From the drawing and photo it seems likely that the system simply had two very small light bulbs, for which the battery provided power.

Otherwise World War 2 era Finnish Army was very poorly equipped for night fighting. There was shortage of flare guns basically for whole duration of WW2. Due to this Finnish military ended up acquiring a very large mix of flare guns from variety of sources. In addition Finnish Army went as far as to develop a flare launcher for rifle M/91, this launcher attached to tip of barrel used blank rifle cartridge fired in the rifle for launching the flare. Some 8,000 of these flare launchers for rifle M/91 were manufactured in year 1943. Also apparently flare ammunition for mortars and field artillery didn't yet exist at the time.

What I have read suggests that Finnish Army had little unique tactics-wise, when it comes to night fighting. "Taktiikan perusteet" (Basics of Tactics) manual by H. Olkkonen (published 1928) contains bit over three pages about the subject. He notes that night fighting is difficult by nature - estimating distances, keeping troops together and keeping the right march heading all gets complicated and soldiers nerves will get tense much easier. Hence he doesn't consider large-scale night operations viable, but notes that doing preparations and smaller-scale operations are possible or even recommends them. The main advantage that he notes is that night will hide transfers of troops, equipment and deliveries of supplies, work done for improving frontline positions, pulling out troops or starting retreat from enemy aerial reconnaissance. When it comes to night attacks he notes that they must be well prepared surprise attacks which require gathering accurate information of the terrain of the battlefield in beforehand. Attacking infantry should be sent in tight groups suited for the terrain and if possible try to use their edged weapons as much as possible, while use of firearms should be saved to last possible moment and even then rely on hand grenades and small arms instead of machineguns.

If one compares this to what sort of tactics Finnish troops used in night attacks against Soviet troops besieged in number of motti during Winter War, the typical Finnish weapons for this sort of attacks seem to have included submachineguns, hand grenades, pistols, satchel charges and molotov cocktails. The basic idea apparently being surprise attack in which the Finnish troops tried to get at close to Soviet trenches as possible before being spotted. The biggest difference to Olkkonen's ideas seems to have been due to development of equipment - submachineguns and satchel charges had provided a notable boost for short-range firepower and therefore reduced the importance of bayonets and knives as combat weapons.

Jarkko