What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Fliegende Untertasse
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby Fliegende Untertasse » 21 Jan 2013 11:46

CanKiwi2 wrote:Just noticed, I am switching here and there between miles and kilometers. Which did Finland use in WW2? The old miles, yards and feet, or kms and metres? Wanted to make sure it was correct and consistent. Personally, I grew up with miles, yards and feet so when I'm typing away, my natural reaction is to use those....


Old measures are here ( name, old Finnish, UK , USA, Russia, SI-unit of numbers )
http://runeberg.org/pieni/3/0097.html

SOme people might have used these collogially. But only as approximates.

Most common would be tonni ( ton, metric ton, counted in halves and rounded to closest 500kg ) and
peninkulma normally meaning "about 10km" (comparable to Swedish mil, never exactly 7 virsta ).
Also
*) kyynärä = "forearm" (usually meaning half a meter or bit less , not 2 jalka as it officially was ),
*) syli = fathom ,"arms spread" ( couple meters ),
*) vaaksa ="fingerspan" (~7"-8" )
tuuma = inch ( 2-3 cm ) , imperial inch was used as trade measure for nails and lumber. "Tuuma" would never be exactly 24.7mm
naula = pound ( half a kg , like German Pfund , rarely used ).

*) speakers might use their own bodyparts as reference.

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby CanKiwi2 » 21 Jan 2013 18:39

Fliegende Untertasse wrote:Old measures are here ( name, old Finnish, UK , USA, Russia, SI-unit of numbers )
http://runeberg.org/pieni/3/0097.html

Some people might have used these collogially. But only as approximates. Most common would be tonni ( ton, metric ton, counted in halves and rounded to closest 500kg ) and
peninkulma normally meaning "about 10km" (comparable to Swedish mil, never exactly 7 virsta ).
Also
*) kyynärä = "forearm" (usually meaning half a meter or bit less , not 2 jalka as it officially was ),
*) syli = fathom ,"arms spread" ( couple meters ),
*) vaaksa ="fingerspan" (~7"-8" )
tuuma = inch ( 2-3 cm ) , imperial inch was used as trade measure for nails and lumber. "Tuuma" would never be exactly 24.7mm
naula = pound ( half a kg , like German Pfund , rarely used ).

*) speakers might use their own bodyparts as reference.


Hey, thanks. Have to see what I can work in :)

Of to another (music) question. Does anyone know of a Finnish-language cover of AC/DC Thunderstruck? The reason why will become somewhat evident in the next "What If" post.
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Silta (The Bridge)

Postby CanKiwi2 » 22 Jan 2013 15:06

Silta (The Bridge) ... continued

Hakkarainen had moved his Command Sika forward in the column as they moved away from the ambush site. Lammio’s joukkue was in the lead but Kariluoto’s ryhmää had gotten itself slightly disorganized as they pulled out of the ambush site and Hakkarainen had moved up, leaving Korsumaki with the log trucks and the half-tracks and positioning himself at the rear of Hietanen’s ryhmää. The Kettu’s and Bantam’s had moved out quickly, shaking themselves into column march order without any delays, and Koskela’s joukkue was once again bringing up the rear. Hakkarainen was busy checking the map as they moved out, the next objective was key, a concrete bridge across a small river that was reportedly un-fordable for kilometers either side of the bridge. It wasn’t so much the river that was the problem, as the wide swatch of swamp that lay either side, impassable for vehicles and difficult for men. Thus, capturing the bridge intact was critical to continuing the rapid advance of the 21st. “No pressure then,” Hakkarainen muttered to himself.

The Forward Air Observer was on the radio, reporting in. The river itself was small, the bridge was a solid concrete structure with a sandbagged blockhouse at either end, a guard kiosk and wooden barrier at either end of the bridge itself and something like thirty houses straggling down the road, either side of the river in roughly equal numbers. There were half a dozen sand-bagged AA positions but the FAO reported they seemed to be unaware of the destruction of the battalion that had recently passed them by. The gun crews were reportedly lazing around the guns, although the FAO did report one of them had taken a couple of shots at him when he got a little too close. A band of swampy ground a couple of hundred meters wide lay either side of the river, north and south – the only access to the bridge was down the road, which was basically a causeway across the swampy ground. The only real chance they had was taking the Russians by surprise. Hakkarainen grimaced. If the Russians clued in, that was going to cost heavily. He was about to start issuing orders when the Forward Artillery Controller came up on the RT. “Boss, got a schwarm of Tyrmääjä on tap, they just called up, can I use them to support our attack?.”

Hakkarainen smiled. He’d seen the Tyrmääjä in action once before. Just once, but that was enough to know that he didn’t want to be on the receiving end of their attacks. “Bring them in along the river from the north moving south, have them hit the Russians just as we come out of the forest,” he instructed the FAC, keeping the FAO in the net. “Ask them to do a low flyby so the men can see what they look like, most of us haven’t seem them before, don’t want to shoot at them by accident. Hakkarainen Out.”
“Roger that,” the FAO responded. There was a brief pause. “They see us, doing a fly by in one minute, warning the kompannia.”
The FAO came up on the komppania radio net immediately. “All Hakkarainen elements. We have a schwarm of Ilmavoimat Tyrmääjä doing a flyby in one minute so you can see what they look like. Don’t shoot at them. Out.”
Beside Hakkarainen, Linna whistled. “Tyrmääjä hei, what did we do to get so lucky?”
Hakkarainen shrugged. “Damned if I know, but never look a gift horse in the mouth.”
Overhead he heard a slow “Thwoppa …. Thwoppa …. Thwoppa…” Looking back down the line of vehicles, he grinned. “And there they are,” he said, “take a good look men, you won’t see these too often. Be happy they’re ours.

Moving up from behind, parallel to the road, just above the tree-tops and only slightly faster than the column of vehicles were four of the Ilmavoimat’s ground-attack gyrocopters, the Maataistelutykkikone (literally, "Ground Battle Gun Plane"), more usually referred to as the "Tyrmääjä" (very literally meaning "Knockout-striker!" - technically, a boxing term, it was a more than apt description of the devastating result when these aircraft attacked). They flew so close to the column that Hakkarainen felt he could almost reach out and touch them. Long and lean, a predatory look enhanced by the shark’s mouths painted on the noses with their protruding 37mm gun, he could see the multi-barreled machinegun pods, the 7.62mm Lahti-Konekivääri "Yliveto", one mounted each side of the fuselage, bombs and rocket pods under the short stub wings with their two engines, the weirdly shaped cockpit with one pilot sitting behind and above the other in front of the huge propeller that held the machine aloft instead of wings. It looked predatory, and dangerous even at its slow speed, keeping pace with the column, although he still found it hard to believe such a machine could fly without wings. Hakkarainen could see the face of one of the Pilots, turned to look at him. He waved, saw the white of teeth as the pilot smiled, gave him a thumbs up, and then the four machines banked away, picking up speed, disappearing from sight and from hearing.
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby Fliegende Untertasse » 22 Jan 2013 19:27

CanKiwi2 wrote:Of to another (music) question. Does anyone know of a Finnish-language cover of AC/DC Thunderstruck?


Eläkeläiset - Humpatkaa!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr3CP5uQQtE

not 100% sure if this is what you had in mind though .... ;)

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby CanKiwi2 » 24 Jan 2013 03:12

Fliegende Untertasse wrote:
CanKiwi2 wrote:Of to another (music) question. Does anyone know of a Finnish-language cover of AC/DC Thunderstruck?


Eläkeläiset - Humpatkaa!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr3CP5uQQtE

not 100% sure if this is what you had in mind though .... ;)


No, not quite the version I had in mind. The original has a certain something - I was hoping for a Finnish version that kindof captured the AC/DC flavour... ah well, just visualise a WW2 Ilmavoimat gyrocopter gunship in the video below 8-)

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby Topspeed » 24 Jan 2013 08:33

Can Kiwi hi !

I see you also run an alternate finnish history forum elsewhere. I am interested where you get the info for that ?

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discuss ... 434&page=8

best regards,

Juke

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Re: What If - Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby Topspeed » 24 Jan 2013 08:57

CanKiwi2 wrote:
And just as a hint of things to come......

Image
Eino Ilmari Juutilainen won all his victories flying an Ilmavoimat Merlin-engined Heinkel He 112 Fighter. In his biography, he described his first combat flights against the Soviet Bombers attacking Helsinki on the first day of the war. "We were scrambled by Fighter Control early on the 1st of December. The Controllers vectored us onto the Soviet Bombers heading for Helsinki. I had some trouble with my engine, and so I got a little behind the rest of my Squadron. When I was close to Helsinki, I got a message from Control of three enemy bombers approaching and was vectored onto them. After about half a minute, I saw three Soviet bombers approaching. I was about 1,500 feet above them and started the attack turn just like in gunnery camp at Käkisalmi. Despite the engine problems, which meant I did not have full power, I closed with them quickly. The Soviet aircraft immediately dropped their bomb loads and turned back. I shot the three rear gunners, one by one. Then I started to shoot the engines. I followed them a long way and kept on shooting. One of them nosed over and crashed almost immediately. The two others were holed like cheese graters but continued in a shallow, smoking descent until I closed in again to finish them off. Then they went down. I had spent all of my ammunition, so I turned back. There was no special feeling of real combat. Everything went exactly like training."

Image
The Merlin-engined Heinkel He112 was one of the better Fighters operated by the Ilmavoimat in the Winter War.



I don't like the mixture of fact and fiction...Illu Juutilainen did not fly Merlin Powered Heinkel..there was never such plane in FAF....PM-3 ( in picture in winter camo ) was never realized ( if it had been chosen to be developed it would have appeared in 1944-1945 earliest )..and it had Me-109 spare angine planned.

Instead a bigger and slower PM-1 was built after the war under soviet supervision !!!!??? This is a fact.
Last edited by Topspeed on 24 Jan 2013 09:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: And now, back to Valtion Lentokonetehdas

Postby Topspeed » 24 Jan 2013 09:27

CanKiwi2 wrote:And now, back to Valtion Lentokonetehdas



An now - an interim side-bar to the current topic of of Valtion Lentokonetehdas’ and the Ilmavoimat’s Purchase and Construction Program

An Interesting Experiment


One of the inspectors of the Valtion Lentokonetehdas (VL) airplane engine workshop in the late 1930’s was Finnish engineer Toivo Jujani Kaario (b. Helsinki, 7 June 1912, d.Tampere, 20 October 1970). Kaario’s father, Hugo Johannes Kaario was also an Engineer, his mother was Iida Maria Appelqvist. The family had four children of whom Toivo was the oldest. Kaario took his matriculation examination in 1930 and completed his military service at the Santahamina factory over 1930-1931. Kaario had an early interest in aviation and at 14 years old he built his first powered aircraft model and had already during his school years, decided to become an airplane designer. With his glider flying experience, Kaario wished to become a Pilot in the Ilmavoimat and he sat Air Force entrance exams, but failed to qualift for pilot training due to poor vision. However, he was selected during his Conscript Service for Reserve Officer training, which he completed successfully, being promoted to lieutenant in July 1931.

In school, his interest in aviation had resulted in his being befriended by Ilmari Jäämaa, editor and writer for a number of different popular science type magazines. In 1929, Kaario had, with classmate Ensio Nuorteva, used a light car to tow one-man gliders. During his Conscript Service, Kaario also became acquainted with a motor transport that operated over the winter sea ice between Santahamina and the inner city of Helsinki. In 1932 Kaario started mechanical engineering courses at the Helsinki University of Technology, graduating as an engineer in December 1936. Following graduation, Kaario was immediately hired by the new and expanding State Aircraft Engine Factory as a service engineer. He was however, together with two other newly hired engineers immediately sent to Germany to study aero-engine design at the Charlottenburg University of Technology in Berlin where he remained for 1937 and 1938. The intention was that these three engineers would then taking leading roles in the new aircraft engine plant in Finland (where currently the bulk of the Engineers were foreigners hired to assist with establishing the factory and train Finnish employees).

At the start of 1939, Kaario returned to Finland together with his two colleagus and was transferred to the State Aircraft Engine’s new Linnavuori engine plant at Siuro where he was assigned to the aero-engine testing facility. Back in Finland, he now had the time to indulge into what had been a long-time hobby. In 1932, Kaario had come up with the idea of developing a vehicle utilising maavaikutusta (ground effect) and he had actually designed a gound-effect vehicle and built a small working model which worked by generating an air-cushion to support it. Over the winter of 1934-1935 Kaario went on to build the first Pintaliitäjäprototyypin (Pintaliitäjä=Surface Soarer, thus “Prototype Surface Soarer”), which was tested on the ice in January 1935.
Image
Toivo Kaario on an early Pintaliitäjäprototyypin in mid-1935

Based on experience testing the first prototype, Kaario went on to build a second prototype, Patosiipi No. 2 which he tested over 1935-1936. Kaario began to develop his theories concerning the use of ground-effect and built several models for further tests. As the ground-effect wing of Kaario’s early designs had an almost non-existent ability to block the loss of air being blown down by the propellor, the Patosiipi No. 2 was able to lift, but the ground-effect lift was weak. Kaario continued to experiment through 1936, building a further full-sized prototype powered by a 2-cylinder Harley-Davidson motorcycle engine but this time with a ”skirt” underneath which added to the lift by trapping the high pressure air that had been forced. This device was first tested on land and then on the water and was found to be slower but with more lift over an uneven surface. It was at this point that Kaario had discontinued his research and trials as he had graduated and is spare time in Berlin was largely taken up with his studies. However, he did have some free time....

And Kaario used this time well, bouncing his ideas around with German aviation experts, draw new designs, build and test models and come up with further improvements. In the late 1930’s when Kaario was in Germany, German aviation had been released from the shackles imposed after the defeat of WW1, the Luftwaffe was expanding rapidly, German aviation designers were trying out a variety of new ideas and concepts, some of them out there on the bleeding edge of technology, many of them merely leading edge, and Kaario found himself in the thick of this. His interests led him to make many contacts, and on his return to Finland in January 1939, Kaario had accumulated two years worth of ideas, thoughts and interaction with German aviation experts as well as having constructed and trialled a large number of models. Almost all his spare time was taken up with building and testing models and almost immediately he also began work on Patosiipi No. 8 which had substantially improved lift and air flow properties. At this stage a number of fellow workers at the State Aircraft Factory had become interested in his project and provided voluntary assistance. Work on Patosiipi No. 8 progressed rapidly tilizing a 53hp Porsche engine and before the snow was off the ground in the Spring of 1939, the device was first tested on land beside the Härmälä airport and then on the water at Siuro. The main problems experienced were vibration when driving on uneven ground and the inability of the prototype to drive over obstacles more than 20-cm-high. Sometimes serendipity plays its part in events. It was the testing beside Härmälä airport that inadvertantly led to far more rapid progress than Kaario had anticipated. Major-General Somersalo had been attending a meeting at the Airport whic had run late. On leaving, he happened to see the group working on Patosiipi No. 8 and stopped to watch as a test run was carried out, with the device reaching some 80kph while carrying two people. Intrigued, Somersalo had walked over to the group and started asking questions. At midnight, the entire group and Somersalo were still at the Airport with Kaario running an impromptu design review.

Two days later, Kaario and his team of volunteers found themselves doing a presentation to Somersalo, the head of the Merivoimat, Väinö Valve, the comanding officer of the Marine Jaegers, a small group of technical Officers and a couple of rather tough looking individuals in nondescript Maavoimat uniforms without any rank or branch identification. Kaario seized the opportunity and over a single day, he outlined the concepts and ideas he had put together while in Germany, starting with plans for a 100 ton Pintaliitäjä intended for transport on the Baltic Sea and with a cruising speed of 100-120kph, then moving on to concepts for a Fast Torpedo and Minelayer Pintaliitäjä and a High Speed Infantry Assault Pintaliitäjä. The ”ground effect” concept was explained in detail, and then demonstrated using Patosiipi No. 8, and Kaario’s ideas on how this could better be utilised were also explained (Kaario was perhaps the first to conceive of using a ”skirt” to trap air, rather than simply using ground-effect).
Image
Line Drawing of Pintaliitäjä-Craft proposed by Kaario in Spring 1939

Image
Rough Sketch of Infantry Assault Pintaliitäjä-Craft as proposed by Kaario in Spring 1939

The next morning he was summoned to the office of the Manager to find, not the Manager but the Commanding Officer of the Merivoimat, Väinö Valve. After a short and to the point discussion, Valve asked Kaario if he would take on a position as leader of a design and development team tasked with turning his Pintaliitäjä concept into a viable military weapon within a 12 month period. Adequate resourcing would be provided and the project would have the full backing of the Merivoimat. Kaario agreed. Almost immediately, a team was assembled and design work began for a full-size protoype of the Fast Torpedo and Minelayer Pintaliitäjä. The first prototype, maintaining the numbering sequence Kaario had initiated in 1932 was designated P-9, and had a very simple design which consisted of an elongated oblong shape made up two wooden catamaran hulls and powered by three aircraft engines using what we would now call a chamber configuration design. Two Mercury aero-engines were installed horizontally in the funnel-shaped wells on the platform which connected the catamaran hulls together. The third engine, also a Mercury, was placed in the aft part of the craft on a removable four-strut pylon. An air cushion was produced by the horizontally-placed engines. P-9 was designed and built over a one week period and was immediately trialled, achieving a speed of 70 knots, or about 130 kilometers per hour.
Image
P-9 during initial trials in Spring 1939- the Red Star and ”CCCP” were painted on the sides to confuse any Observers, as it was known that the USSR was conducting trials on a similar type of craft designed by a Soviet engineer, Vladimir Levkov. It was hoped that any sightings of the Finnish craft would be confused with the Soviet Navy craft that had been observed carrying out trials.

The tests lasted for 10 days and at that time nobody other than Kaario and his small team of volunteers had any experience in operating such vehicles. Overwater runs were performed using all three engines running simultaneously, with the trials conducted in both calm and windy weather, crosswind and downwind, over flat shore and over swampy areas covered with sedge. Once the hovercrafts engines failed and the vehicle landed in a deep swamp. However, as soon as the engines were restarted, the boat ascended and recovered itself from the swamp. The maximum speed in the first runs was approximately 60 knots but in later tests 70 knots was easily reached and according to the P-9 test commander, a Merivoimat Fast Torpedo Boat commander, this was not on full power. Trial results of this first prototype hovercraft were acknowledged as very satisfactory. It was indicated in the report that the “principle for surface-soarer vehicles has been proven feasible.” This report was approved by the Commander of the Merivoimat, who directed that the Naval Construction Plan should encompass the production of two types of such skimming boats: one to be used as a fast attack torpedo craft and the other as a marine landing craft. Emergency Funds were allocated and the project was given the highest priority with a direction that three prototypes of each were to be constructed and completed by the end of summer 1939. This was a highly aggressive timetable, but one that the team worked day and night to meet.
Image
Initial design sketch of P-10

Image
P-10 at rest during a break in her initial trials P-10 had been designed over a four week period and a prototype was put together by mid-July 1939.

Image
Performance Trials of P-10 on the Gulf of Finland, Summer of 1939. ”CCCP” was painted on the sides to confuse any Observers, as it was known that the USSR was conducting trials on a similar type of craft designed by a Soviet engineer, Vladimir Levkov. It was hoped that any sightings of the Finnish craft would be confused with the Soviet Navy craft that had been observed carrying out trials.

Building on knowledge gained from the P-10, a full-metal (duralumin) fast torpedo and infantry assault craft, designated P-11 was built in late summer 1939. The craft had a streamlined shape, in the midship area there was a streamlined pilot house/cabin for the pilot, mechanic and radio operator followed by a troop compartment, two turret (aircraft turrets were used, as had been done with some of the patrol torpedo boats) machine-gun mounts were installed on either side and slightly aft of the pilot-house and there was an aft mounted rear-facing 20mm cannon for AA protection. Directional control was provided by two large tail fins. Torpedo attachment points were arranged on either side of the troop compartment and the craft could also carry eight depth charges. The P-11 could surmount sandy strips, bogs, ice and rough seas, but was unstable during high speed turns. Regardless, a decision was made that it should go into production and by November 1939, the Merivoimat had 21 experimental air-cushion dual-purpose P-11 Pintaliitäjä-boats (High-Speed Torpedo Boats and Assault Craft) in service. The P-11 had a tonnage of 8.6-11.3 t, a crew of 7 men, a length of 24m, a width of 5.4 m, was armed with 2x12.7mm machineguns and 1x20mm Hispano-Suiza 20mm Cannon, carried two torpedoes, was powered by 2x1000hp Hispano-Suiza engines and could reach a top speed of 80 knots (approx 160kph).

Image
P-10 in the Suomenlinna Workshop

As the Winter War broke out, Kaario’s team worked on manufacturing additional P-11 Pintaliitäjä-boats and repairing these that had been damaged while Kaario next began to work on an improved P-11 design as well and then, as this changed radically, it became the design for a larger and longer-ranged P-12 Pintaliitäjä-boat. With more P-11’s having been built and actually being used in operations during the early weeks of the Winter War, Kaario realised the craft had some serious shortcomings. Both good and discouraging reports were coming from the Merivoimat. The discouraging reports stated that pressure under the Pintaliitäjä-boats was low due to air escape through the vessels open ends, which reduced the load-carrying capacity; spray produced by the powerful engines limited visibility, the Pintaliitäjä-boats operations were limited to sea state 4 or less amd the impact of the Pintaliitäjä-boats with waves changed the settings of the louvres and occasionally damaged them. The engines also had problems with stalling when water penetrated into the exposed carburetors, and since the engines were positioned horizontally, they were not sufficiently air-cooled and would often overheat if run for long periods of time. Despite this, the Pintaliitäjä-boats had proved highly effective in combat due larely to their unbelievably high speeds.

Kaario and his design team worked 16 hour days working to rectify these problems, often sleeping under their desks in the ex-VL Suomenlinna factory building that was now their base. In the end, the ability of the P-11 design to cope with high speed turns seemed to improve with a substantial widening of the boat, first to 10m and then to 15m. As for lift, Kaario initially experimented with the building of a working model that demonstrated that by pumping air into a narrow tunnel around the perimeter of the underneath of the craft, it would flow towarda the center, creating a more effective air cushion. This peripheral jet would allow the air pressure to build enough to equal the weight of the craft and, since the air would be trapped, the pressure would elevate the craft off the surface upon which it traveled. By contrast, the P-11 utilised ground-effect, basically provided lift by using a propellor fan to force air from the deck down into the chamber between the two catamaran sides, which meant that air had to be continually pumped down to replace the air that escaped. After successfully trialling a model demonstrating that his new “air cushion” theory worked, Kaario redesigned P-12 incorporating a number of other modifications, a subject we shall return to after the Winter War.

OTL Note: Historically, Toivo Juhani Kaario was a Finnish engineer and inventor, who in the 1930s started working on prototypes of air cushion vehicles. Kaario is considered to have designed and built the first functional ground effect vehicles, but his invention did not receive sufficient funds for further development. Also, in this ATL I have shifted the dates by a couple of years to fit the scenario. But all else aside, Kaario WAS the first in the world to design and build functional ground effect vehicles and the Soviet engineer, Vladimir Levkov, followed his efforts as closely as was possible before building his pre-WW2 combat hovercraft for the USSR…… Toivo Kaario died at the age of 58 after a short illness in October 1970. He is buried at Tampere in the Kalevankangas Cemetery.



I hope people are aware that Kaario never proposed a military vessel but did invent the hovercraft and sold rights to hovercraft co in England to produce them..he invented hovercraft type device around 1935. I see soviets did also come up with similar kinda lay out..may I ask where is the source of these russian hovercrafts ???

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Re: What If - Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby CanKiwi2 » 24 Jan 2013 10:11

Topspeed wrote:I don't like the mixture of fact and fiction...Illu Juutilainen did not fly Merlin Powered Heinkel..there was never such plane in FAF....PM-3 ( in picture in winter camo ) was never realized ( if it had been chosen to be developed it would have appeared in 1944-1945 earliest )..and it had Me-109 spare angine planned.

Instead a bigger and slower PM-1 was built after the war under soviet supervision !!!!??? This is a fact.


Hei Juke

This being a semi-fictional What If, the whole thread from start to finish is an amalgamation of fact, fiction and off-the-top of-my-head extrapolation. Like the pigeon-guided glide-bombs and combat hovercraft (and, dare I say it, gunship-gyrocopters). On the other hand, I try to work as much REAL history and info as I can while at the same time staying with the storyline tucked away in my head.

Ref the He112, this will change. I have a new writeup underway which will supercede this one. Be a good few weeks before that comes out however. When it doe,its going to cover quite a range of aircraft-related topics.

Cheers........Nigel
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Re: And now, back to Valtion Lentokonetehdas

Postby CanKiwi2 » 24 Jan 2013 10:26

Topspeed wrote:I hope people are aware that Kaario never proposed a military vessel but did invent the hovercraft and sold rights to hovercraft co in England to produce them..he invented hovercraft type device around 1935. I see soviets did also come up with similar kinda lay out..may I ask where is the source of these russian hovercrafts ???


Outside of Finland, I think very few people have ever heard of Kaario. I had not and I have always been interested in hovercraft. So hopefully as a result of this, a few more people than previously at least know he existed. But that proposed civilian hovercraft was in fact his design, The Russian military hovercraft were all the result of a few searches on Levkov (some of the info is elsewhere on this forum I believe) - most of the info on him that I put together was from a Russian-language website I believe (http://milparade.udm.ru/32/062.htm. It was in researching Levkov that I came across the references to Kaario (http://forum.burek.com/hovercraft-t251678.wap2.html) which led me to find out a bit more about him. Turns out he was perfect for the role in my alternative history.

Also this youtube clip


Anyhow, deviations from reality aside, I hope this thread has interested a few more people on Finnish history and culture that would otherwise have known little or nothing about it. Have to say, alternative history is one of those things you either like or not - personally I find the spinoffs and extrapolations involved in a What If scenario quite fascinating. Others do not, but thats the case for anything,fictional or non-fictional. Anyhow, glad you are interested enough to ask the questions about the thread :D

Re the other website I post on, www.alternatehistory.com is a pure alternate history site, unlike here. I get rather different feedback there, which is also useful to have. That said, this forum is where this started out and it all gets posted here first, with a lot more Q&A than on the other site.

Cheers..........Nigel
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby Juha Tompuri » 24 Jan 2013 12:02


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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby Topspeed » 24 Jan 2013 12:39

Okay CanKiwi2 !

I was a bit annoyed when I looked for info on Kaario and found all this "nonsense" you are pretty good in producing these fairytales..have to admit.

Thanks for the links and video !

rgds,


Juke

PS : I provided 3-views for the finnish PM-3 pictured in that painting...against soviet fast bomber..it was supposed to go 750 km/h and have retractable radiator like in Morane MS 406. Span was under 8 meters ( or about there )..way smaller than Heinkel He-100 speed plane. Armed with just one 30 mm cannon.

This lame duck was then built after the war when pilots wanted more guns etc; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VL_Py%C3%B6rremyrsky

Here is the PM-3 PUUSKA; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKGwqlj1 ... RQ&index=9 ....unfortunately the retractable radiator missed in the design.

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CanKiwi2
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby CanKiwi2 » 24 Jan 2013 13:13

Topspeed wrote:Okay CanKiwi2 ! I was a bit annoyed when I looked for info on Kaario and found all this "nonsense" you are pretty good in producing these fairytales..have to admit. Thanks for the links and video !

rgds, Juke.


:oops: I can see it would be a bit disconcerting to look up Kaario and find my spiel! I have seriously contemplated a disclaimer at the top of each post a number of times!!!! I had hoped the title of the thread 'What If" - would be the give-away but every now and then somebody stumbles across something here on a subject they're looking into and gets completely misled. Actually, when I started this I aimed to make the What If alternatives merge as seamlessly as possible into reality so that it would actually be difficult to tell where reality left of and fiction began if you weren't reasonably knowledgable on Finnish history. The only drawback of having the thread in the Winter War & Continuation War Forum rather than in the What If section of the board is that those who come across this for the first time could be misled.

Topspeed wrote: PS : I provided 3-views for the finnish PM-3 pictured in that painting...against soviet fast bomber..it was supposed to go 750 km/h and have retractable radiator like in Morane MS 406. Span was under 8 meters ( or about there )..way smaller than Heinkel He-100 speed plane. Armed with just one 30 mm cannon. This lame duck was then built after the war when pilots wanted more guns etc; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VL_Py%C3%B6rremyrsky

Here is the PM-3 PUUSKA; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKGwqlj1 ... RQ&index=9 ....unfortunately the retractable radiator missed in the design.


Thx for those links. I wrote that so long ago I didn't remember where I even picked it up from but the artwork really grabbed me. Alas, the He112 has now been superceded in the plot..... but the replacement is another work of art ... albeit another little deviation from reality :D
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

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Topspeed
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby Topspeed » 24 Jan 2013 13:20

Okay !

Here is total info on Toivo Kaario; http://tutkielmat.uta.fi/pdf/gradu01659.pdf

He said he invented the lift for a snow sledge in 1932.

There are good drawings about PM-3 in Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinenlehti..cannot remember which year and what number.

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Fliegende Untertasse
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Postby Fliegende Untertasse » 24 Jan 2013 17:55

Topspeed wrote:Here is the PM-3 PUUSKA; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKGwqlj1 ... RQ&index=9 ....unfortunately the retractable radiator missed in the design.


Well, I had 3 different sets of rather scetchy drawings for PU when I made that model.
The PU never went past "cigarette box backside", so there is lot of room for speculation.

Topspeed wrote:This lame duck was then built after the war when pilots wanted more guns etc; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VL_Py%C3%B6rremyrsky


No. PU and PM were different projects. PM was allways intented as the main front-line fighter optimized for low level dogfight with ground attack capability.
PU was planned as specialized high altitude interceptor.
VL cancelled the Puuska-project after air force insisted adding all those extra weapons. As the calculated climb and speed performance was reduced so close to Pyörremyrsky that development cots of a separate airframe were no longer justified.


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