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Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby Vaeltaja on 14 Feb 2013 15:23

Naming was quite simple actually. Strange names were usually used with temporary formations or assignments of units to different formation. JR 4 just seem to combine the worst qualities of all being split between several divisions and army corps.

JR x only notes the infantry regiment in question, 'Roman' numerals before note the battalion of that regiment - i.e. III/JR 4 is the 3rd battalion of the JR 4 - and 'Arabic' numerals before the name note the company of that regiment - i.e. 5./JR 4 would be the 5th infantry company of the JR 4 (which also belongs to the II/JR 4).

As for database for fallen soldiers: http://kronos.narc.fi/menehtyneet/ - AFAIK it includes all the fallen soldiers.

EDIT: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=88233 <- some information regarding the 'light JR 4' and 'Heavy battalion of JR 4'.
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby John Hilly on 14 Feb 2013 20:06

olia wrote:I found one website with the names:
HÄMEENNIEMI, SEPPO OLAVI maanviljelijä sotamies JR 4/5. 30.8.1921 Miehikkälä 23.8.1941 Kämärä 19
OVASKA, TAUNO AULIS maanviljelijä korpraali JR 4/5. 23.7.1914 Kirvu 24.8.1941 Kämärä 27
PERKKO, RISTO OLAVI koululainen alikersantti JR 4/5. 24.9.1920 Tampere 23.8.1941 Kämärä 20
HJULMAN, HEIKKI FRANS koululainen sotamies JR 4/II 9.12.1921 Rauma 23.8.1941 Kämärä 19
ILMONIEMI, ERKKI KUSTAA opiskelija alikersantti JR 4/II 22.3.1923 Espoo 23.8.1941 Kämärä 18
LAIVUORI, HEIKKI OLAVI talollinen alikersantti JR 4/II 2.5.1920 Vampula 25.8.1941 Kämärä 21
LESKIMAA/LESKENMAA, VEIKKO VILJAMI työmies sotamies JR 4/II 13.6.1921 Kiikoinen 23.8.1941 Kämärä 20
RAKOLAHTI, JAAKKO/VILHO JAAKKO työmies sotamies JR 4/II 29.3.1921 Kauvatsa 23.8.1941 Kämärä 20
here indicates the location of death and also the burial place?

List goes like this:
Name, profession, rank, regiment, company or only battalion, date and place of birth, date and place of death, age.

With best,
J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby Vaeltaja on 14 Feb 2013 20:30

From my personal experience the 'place of death' is really dodgy to use. Problems arise since the name of place of death depends on who had read the location on the map or which map happens to have been in use, sometimes it is the name of the wider area, at times the name of a specific village. Some entries omit it altogether and if person happened to die of his wounds then it likely denotes the place of death (often field dressing station or field hospital) instead of the place where the fatal wound was inflicted. So it is 'a tad' unreliable as a search term.
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby olia on 16 Feb 2013 19:34

I looked at the database Finns killed, almost all sent to bury at home town or village. And how Finns buried dead Soviet soldiers? After a battle in Tassiolampi area they calculated the exact number of dead Soviet soldiers - 46. So they collected them, perhaps buried. Where and how buried? On the battlefield or transported somewhere? Marked on the map this place or not?
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby Mangrove on 17 Feb 2013 10:48

olia wrote:So they collected them, perhaps buried. Where and how buried? On the battlefield or transported somewhere? Marked on the map this place or not?


Groups of Soviet soldiers were buried in mass graves after the fighting had ended. Individual persons, such as pilots, were usually buried in situ where they had perished. I have not seen a map indicating places of mass graves, but I suspect there are such maps at the Finnish National Archive. However, it is quite impossible to know in which mass grave an individual soldier was buried.
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby olia on 17 Feb 2013 17:12

So 46 Soviet soldiers killed 28/08/1941 in the battle of Tassiolampi were buried there, in the triangle of roads?
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby olia on 21 Feb 2013 14:03

John Hilly wrote:Here's a translation from the war diary of I/Kev. JR 4 (source above):

25.8.1941...
... Also there appared tanks to which frontal AT-shots didn't effect. [J-P: KV-1s?]
As one aspect of the fight it should be mentioned that about 300 meters in front of the 1. Coy, the enemy had a Field Artillery battery, which shot direct fire on 1. Coy's positions. 2. Coy tried to overtake the battery using two strong battle groups, but failed.
The road was however cut, and the enemy supply column currently moving there was distroyed.
While the enemy pressure was still getting stronger from the Ylä-Hotakka direction, II battalion that had arrived behind the I P, sent parts of Company Orispää (CO) to help Company Tattari (CO).
As own casualties were growing, the I Battalion got permission withdraw to forest enclaves 100 m from Kattila-oja village, from where to keep the Ylä-Hotakka - Leipäsuo road cut with fire.

Own casualties: 5 killed and 14 wounded...

With best,
J-P :milwink:



Thanks for the translation.
Hotakka's group of Soviet troops had 6 tanks BT, 4 T-34, and less than 10 tanks T-38 and T-26. KV tanks on Soviet documents are not listed.
I have a question. 25/08/1941 at 13:00 1st Battalion Kevyt 4JR began an attack Soviet positions 2 km northeast Leipasuo near a small lake in the forest. I can not find it on the map.

vihollinen kenttävarustetuissa asemissa Leipäsuo o: sta n.2 km. koilliseen olevan pikku lammen korkeudella

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=4954051
http://www.karjalankartat.fi/?language= ... 81&scale=1
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby Vaeltaja on 21 Feb 2013 14:36

olia wrote:Thanks for the translation.
Hotakka's group of Soviet troops had 6 tanks BT, 4 T-34, and less than 10 tanks T-38 and T-26. KV tanks on Soviet documents are not listed.

Given that the Finnish AT guns of the time were at best either German 37mm or Soviet 45 mm guns (or their equivalents) the T-34s were probably (or mostly) resistant to the AT guns in question.

I have a question. 25/08/1941 at 13:00 1st Battalion Kevyt 4JR began an attack Soviet positions 2 km northeast Leipasuo near a small lake in the forest. I can not find it on the map.

vihollinen kenttävarustetuissa asemissa Leipäsuo o: sta n.2 km. koilliseen olevan pikku lammen korkeudella

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=4954051
http://www.karjalankartat.fi/?language= ... 81&scale=1

This is rather typical problems since it was common habit by the Finns to use map notations as reference points instead of using actual locations as reference points. It worked as long as every one had the copy of the same exact map.

From the text it appears to refer to the small pond at (WGS84) N:60.59007 E:29.15923 ( http://www.karjalankartat.fi/?language= ... ayer.WMS_4 ) which appears to be named as 'Kirjoistenlampi' from where the forest (or village) road does run SE towards 'Kattila-Oja' as described in the war diary you linked to the thread. It is around 2 km NE from the center of Leipäsuo swamp - which is probably the location where some maps had 'Leipäsuo' notation. Technically it could also refer to the Leipäsuo village but the only ponds 2 km NE from that are already pretty much in the Kattila-Oja village so realistically it couldn't refer to those.
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby olia on 23 Feb 2013 18:09

Thank you.
I want to кnow exactly 25/08/1941 1K/1P/JR4 attacked southwest Katilaoya? Where it met with Soviet tanks and art.battery. Where were battery-position north or south of the road?
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=4954051
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby John Hilly on 23 Feb 2013 21:06

In my mind the battery was situated about 400 m south of the road, possibly on the wooden hill marked • 37 on the map Vaeltaja provided, so 300 m South- South- East from Kattila-oja village.

With best,
J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby olia on 05 Mar 2013 09:42

Thank you.
Soviet documents include an episode with an attempt by Finns to capture howitzers to 27.08.1941 during the withdrawal of Soviet troops. And the battle near Katilanoya have been 08/25/41.
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby Vaeltaja on 06 Mar 2013 19:20

I tried to check from other war diaries for information, that of 1./Kev.Os.9 remarks that the unit did participate to fighting also on 27 August. However it was low key and on 1./Kev.Os.9 kept advancing from Leipäsuo railway station towards Tassiolampi road triangle until darkness forced them to stop.

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3450185
27 August 2000
Enemy disengaged and the company reformed on the road east of the railroad crossing

27 August 2100
It had already became so dark that advance on bicycles was nearly impossible and Ltn. Iskala (?) ordered company to stop and prepare positions to the road triangle at Tassiolampi kangas (<- hard to translate, that one) so that IV platoon would secure the east point II platoon would men the hill in the south point and I platoon would continue the line to the right while securing the direction of the railroad. AT gun went to IV platoon to shoot towards Kattila-Oja and AT rifle with II platoon to the hill.

27 August 2130
Two Soviet cars drove from direction of Perkjärvi to front of out positions where they were stopped with rifle and machinegun fire.

27 August 2200
Sounds of a tank heard from the direction of Perkjärvi. At this time AT gun was moved from the east point to south point.

27 August 2225
Enemy opened fire with direct fire artillery from the direction of the road leading to Perkjärvi. Enemy rifle and LMG fire joined in.

28 August 0000 - 0330
Firefight continued
*
28 August 0340
Enemy drove artillery tractors to the front of our positions bringing the direct fire guns with them which started their firing anew. At this time the AT rifle was damaged to unusable.

*28 August 0315
Two AT guns arrived as reinforcements of which other immediately got a direct hit and was damaged while the leader of the gun platoon died and 4 gunners were wounded.

28 August 0345
Our AT gun opened fire at which time enemy gun's ammo carriage blew up.

28 August 0415
At the dawn enemy withdrew towards Perkjärvi leaving 3 artillery tractors, 1 gun and 7 horses as well as 4 horses and some men dead in front of our positions.

It does describe an action where direct fire artillery was used against Finns however in this engagements the Finns were not attacking against the guns, instead the guns were used offensively.
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby olia on 08 Mar 2013 15:21

Thank you. This is a new and unknown to me episode in Muolanjarvi area's battle. Its no clear to me - what guns came from the direction Perkjarvi? As I know tractor-drawn howitzers could be 122 mm and 152 mm. The Hotakka area operated 24 152 mm howitzers (101 HTR), and 24 howitzers (122 mm and 152 mm 495 GAP) in Pien Pero. And they all retreated from the north to the south in Perkjarvi. No details on this in Finnish documents ?
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby Vaeltaja on 08 Mar 2013 18:48

Well in that part of the fighting for the road triangle of Tassiolampi the Soviet forces all came from Perkjärvi (or from the road leading to Perkjärvi). Fighting with Soviet troops (column) approaching from Kattila-Oja direction started later (at 0600). Those troops also had AT and field guns with them - some of them horse drawn and others drawn by artillery tractors - but it appears that group only used tanks, AT guns and infantry when fighting against the Finns. No mention of field gun usage from the Soviets in that phase of the battle.
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Re: Muolaanjarvi ( Kannas) 24-28.08.1941

Postby Vaeltaja on 08 Mar 2013 19:21

Could you give more accurate location as to where the Soviet/Russian sources place the artillery usage on 27 August 1941?
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