Use of poison gas in the Winter War?

[patrik.possi]

I was searching the archives of the Swedish newspapper "Dagens Nyheter" during the period of the first days of winter war when one allegetion noted from Finland was that the enemy used gas. That was just mention brief one day and never rementioned. If you are intressted I could check it again.

Btw That doesnt mean that Soviet actually used gas, and I have rolled it out as a rumor that happends during those confusing time.

[Denis1973]

Btw That doesnt mean that Soviet actually used gas, and I have rolled it out as a rumor that happends during those confusing time.

I'm think you rigth here. In Russian war arhive (TsAMO) I read official paper from high command about german use of AP rounds with gas (!!!) in North Afrika against british tanks.

[Juha Tompuri]

In Russian war arhive (TsAMO) I read official paper from high command about german use of AP rounds with gas (!!!) in North Afrika against british tanks.

Actually the Germans did use gas:

Patrone 318 SmKH -Rs-L'spur, whereas "Patrone" means "cartridge", 318 was an inversion of 813 that stood for an 8mm bullet in a 13mm casing; SmK meant "Spitzgeschoss mit Kern" ("pointed bullet with core"), SmKH = "Spitzgeschoss mit Kern (Hart)" ("pointed bullet with core (hard)") meant the same projectile that featured a hardened steel core (some sources report a tungsten-carbide core but this seems wrong), Rs stood for "Reizstoff" ("irritant agent") because the projectile also contained a small amount of tear gas

http://www.geocities.com/pizzatest/panzerfaust6.htm

Regards, Juha

[patrik.possi]

Hm.. I also have a vauge referens to Soviet accusing Finnish army to use gas during the winter war.

According to the corps command of the 54 Soviet Divsion who was in a motti in Kuhmo accused the Finns to use gas.

Ok, idont belive in this either, but does anyone know witch was the Finnish Army way of delivering chemical agents? In case of gas warfare...

[JTV]

Ok, idont belive in this either, but does anyone know witch was the Finnish Army way of delivering chemical agents? In case of gas warfare...

None - Finnish Army didn't have any chemical weapons at that time or later. Some 1920's manuals included details like how to use of artillery-shells loaded with gas as part of tacticals and technical information about German gas shell for 76-mm minethrower, but apparently neither were acquired. It's possible that small amount of Russian M/1917 gas hand grenades might have been captured in 1918, but those would have been long gone by World War 2 (like all World War 1 era hand grenades).

Jarkko

[StefanSiverud]

I've recently been going through the local newspaper archives from the war years, and I've found several headlines claiming the Soviet army used poison gas on a few occasions. Is there any truth to this?

A forum search has revealed nothing conclusive, but if there is already a thread on the subject, please let me know.

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi,

Here is one related thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=150937

Regards, Juha

[peeved]

According to http://www.nbcsec.fi/sptry/arkisto/NBC_ ... a_2012.pdf p. 52 during the Winter War the Finnish Army reported 13 inspected and documented observations concerning the use of chemical weapons.

Markus

[StefanSiverud]

Hi,

Here is one related thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=150937

Regards, Juha

Strange I didn't find the other thread, I searched for 'gas winter war' and that one didn't show up. Thank you! Seeing as that thread concerns wood gas cars in Finnish use, I'll leave it alone and keep the alleged Soviet gas warfare in this thread.

According to http://www.nbcsec.fi/sptry/arkisto/NBC_ ... a_2012.pdf p. 52 during the Winter War the Finnish Army reported 13 inspected and documented observations concerning the use of chemical weapons.

Markus

Thanks! Don't suppose there's a Swedish or English version? The Google translation makes very little sense.

Was use of poisonous gasses ever proven? Or was it just smoke, perhaps with some carbon monoxide poisoning or the like involved?
I was surprised to see several headlines saying it was used, and some days later saying it was still used, considering I've never heard of it. For some English language papers with the same type of articles, see for instance:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/81490492
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article96371865

[JTV]

According the article behind that link the 13 cases were researched and documented. There were much larger number of false alarms, for example just in early December some 22 suspected cases for Soviet use of chemical weapons were reported. First case mentioned in situation reports of Finnish Armed Forces GHQ was Soviet gas-attack against artillery battery in Salmi (Lupikko) with gas-filled artillery shells in 6th of December. Already before this infantry patrol in Raivola had been sprayed from aircraft with gas in 1st of December, those soldiers of the patrol who had not used their gas mask had suffered clear symptoms and had been hospitalized. Apparently Raivola case had been considered to be an isolated case, due to which it was not publicly reported.

The Finns tried to verify the suspected cases of Soviet use of chemical weapons with chemical samples and by methods of medical science. Publicity for the cases was acquired for example by taking foreign press to military hospitals to visit the soldiers, who had been victims of gas-attack. February of 1940 Finnish government sent a note of protest to foreign countries concerning enemy use for methods of "inhumane warfare" with the suspected use of gas-weapon in Lupikko as one of the cases.

Last part of the article quotes report of Colonel Uolevi Poppius (commander of anti-gas warfare in GHQ of Finnish Armed Forces at that time) written in end of Winter War. The report noted that "Multiple cases about Soviet having been using chemical war gases were reported. All cases were scattered and amount of gas used quite small. The use of gas-weapon have only been verified due to symptoms caused by them, since no chemical samples were successfully gathered from most important cases and therefore our laboratories were unable to chemically specify the type of gas used. It seems that the Soviets may have used small amounts of chemical war gasses only by accident or against their orders." Intelligence gathered by Armed Forces GHQ suggests that "the enemy had issued orders to get the chemical war gasses "combat ready", but had forbidden their use until issuing of further orders." Apparently those further orders were never issued.

The article also mentions case of anthrax among cattle evacuated from Karelian Isthmus elsewhere in Finland. There were suspicions of the case being intentional with the particular strain of anthrax being previously unknown in Finland and having Polish origin. Spreading of antrax was apparently contained in last possible minute by stopping the train carrying the cattle before its cargo was distributed to numerous farms.

Might be worth noting that the article also lists numerous cases of Soviets suspecting Finnish use of chemical weapons. Before the war both sides had spent had spent considerable effort teaching their soldiers about danger of enemy possibly using chemical weapons, which apparently resulted large number of false suspicions. Finnish military had no chemical weapons beyond small samples used for research & study purposes. According book that I recently read, Finnish industry had capability for manufacturing gas and during Winter War was in readiness to start production if ordered so. But since the Soviets did not use gas warfare in large scale, that order was never issued.

Jarkko

[Swing]

Commander of the 8th Army Air Force I.I. Kopec on the 1st of January 1940 ordered to prepare one squadron from the 72nd SAP (mixed bomber regiment) and 13th SBAP (speed bomber regiment) for carrying of chemical weapons. According to Kopec, mustard gas could be an effective weapon against Finnish snipers in the forests. In mid-January at the disposal of the Air Force were given chemical pourer devices VAP-500 and experts for their maintenance. In February pilots began to develop tactics of VAP-500 application in winter conditions, using a mixture of oil and kerosene as a training poison. In February also began field testing of bombs with mustard gas and lewisite at low temperatures. But, fortunately, the Winter war ended three days after the completion of these tests.

[Juha Tompuri]

Relevant posts from another thread (originally about Soviet wood gas usage) were merged to this thread.

/Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi!

Commander of the 8th Army Air Force I.I. Kopec on the 1st of January 1940 ordered to prepare one squadron from the 72nd SAP (mixed bomber regiment) and 13th SBAP (speed bomber regiment) for carrying of chemical weapons. According to Kopec, mustard gas could be an effective weapon against Finnish snipers in the forests. In mid-January at the disposal of the Air Force were given chemical pourer devices VAP-500 and experts for their maintenance. In February pilots began to develop tactics of VAP-500 application in winter conditions, using a mixture of oil and kerosene as a training poison. In February also began field testing of bombs with mustard gas and lewisite at low temperatures. But, fortunately, the Winter war ended three days after the completion of these tests.

Memories from the past:

(a bablefish translation):

It was suggested to use the "chemistry" and the war with Finland. In February 1940 the Air Force commander of the 8th Army, IA Kopec offered before the onset of process agents FEBA Finns. He also wanted to use a very dilute solution of mustard for a "smoking" of the Finnish forest-shooters "cuckoo." Non-lethal concentration was to get them to leave the place of ambush and get out into the open, where they had to identify and destroy the aircraft. Under the experimental landfill site identified coniferous forest. There, crews from Sat 13th and 72nd regiments practiced tactics of VAP-500 in the winter. But the war with Finland ended before the chemical weapons used on the front.

http://ser-sarajkin.narod2.ru/ALL_OUT/A ... 041001.htm

Kocherigin BSh-1
A bablefish translation:

...By removing the fuselage bomb bay tank proposed to expand to accommodate the four cassettes or CD-1-10 (10 locks each), or box-cassettes Efimov-Onisko for small bombs (with a caliber of 2.5 kg) plus eight bars of Der-31 . Cassettes Efimov-Onisko (nicknamed "buckets Onisko") could be replaced by sealed cartridges of AK-1 for ball vials with poisonous or incendiary substances. Chemical weapons Joffe wanted to add four spray tanks devices WAP-4 or a couple under the WCT-100 planes.

This variant of the new leadership of the Air Force weapons beginning of the "punch" as a reference for the second half of 1938 the elaboration of such a project led by OKB-1 since November 1937 Setup Installation Ulu difficulties are not represented. With the CF-3 are also major problems have arisen. November 13 it "tried on" a plane ╧ 32. As a result, concluded: "CF-3 Sentry can be installed on the aircraft without violating the Volta force elements."

It is easy to cope with the increase of fixed ammunition guns. A new design produced in the metal and successfully tested on the NO surfactants. But the suspension VAPov and bombs under the wings considered a complex matter due to the change of the power set of consoles. A couple of VAP-4m designers were able to "attach" under the fuselage, but fly with them was obviously risky - the ground clearance does not exceed 200 mm.

When such a suspension tested in Nipah, it was found that the jet from the propeller breaks up and scatters small drops. The entire tail of the aircraft was spattered colored water, stained for trials in VAPy. And if it was mustard gas? In addition, the small droplets evaporate before they reach the ground. It is not possible to obtain the required concentration of toxic substances on the battlefield...

...March 28 Loktionov still approved requirements for the "SB-1 modified." They included some suggestions Joffe, and something went even further. Provision of 3,600 rounds ammunition for the wing machine guns, turrets CF-3 (top) and CF-2 (bottom), four cassettes CD-1-10 (or alternate at 400 kg bombs), ventral suspension of the two DAP-100 or two-VAP 4m with incendiary devices REC. Last destined for the "Fire rain". At the same time VAPy loaded granular phosphorus and suspended from underneath commandments fed ignite the mixture. Soon, these requirements are supplemented by the introduction of electrical machine gun, the pilot's seat reservations and replacing the engine in the M-62 M-62P gear.

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aww2/bsh1.html

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1703242

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

The article also mentions case of anthrax among cattle evacuated from Karelian Isthmus elsewhere in Finland. There were suspicions of the case being intentional with the particular strain of anthrax being previously unknown in Finland and having Polish origin. Spreading of antrax was apparently contained in last possible minute by stopping the train carrying the cattle before its cargo was distributed to numerous farms.

Actually it was foot and mouth disease, not anthrax.
I think that the alleged intentional poisoning is not a very clear case.

Regards, Juha

[StefanSiverud]

According the article behind that link the 13 cases were researched and documented. There were much larger number of false alarms, for example just in early December some 22 suspected cases for Soviet use of chemical weapons were reported. First case mentioned in situation reports of Finnish Armed Forces GHQ was Soviet gas-attack against artillery battery in Salmi (Lupikko) with gas-filled artillery shells in 6th of December. Already before this infantry patrol in Raivola had been sprayed from aircraft with gas in 1st of December, those soldiers of the patrol who had not used their gas mask had suffered clear symptoms and had been hospitalized. Apparently Raivola case had been considered to be an isolated case, due to which it was not publicly reported.

The Finns tried to verify the suspected cases of Soviet use of chemical weapons with chemical samples and by methods of medical science. Publicity for the cases was acquired for example by taking foreign press to military hospitals to visit the soldiers, who had been victims of gas-attack. February of 1940 Finnish government sent a note of protest to foreign countries concerning enemy use for methods of "inhumane warfare" with the suspected use of gas-weapon in Lupikko as one of the cases.

Last part of the article quotes report of Colonel Uolevi Poppius (commander of anti-gas warfare in GHQ of Finnish Armed Forces at that time) written in end of Winter War. The report noted that "Multiple cases about Soviet having been using chemical war gases were reported. All cases were scattered and amount of gas used quite small. The use of gas-weapon have only been verified due to symptoms caused by them, since no chemical samples were successfully gathered from most important cases and therefore our laboratories were unable to chemically specify the type of gas used. It seems that the Soviets may have used small amounts of chemical war gasses only by accident or against their orders." Intelligence gathered by Armed Forces GHQ suggests that "the enemy had issued orders to get the chemical war gasses "combat ready", but had forbidden their use until issuing of further orders." Apparently those further orders were never issued.

The article also mentions case of anthrax among cattle evacuated from Karelian Isthmus elsewhere in Finland. There were suspicions of the case being intentional with the particular strain of anthrax being previously unknown in Finland and having Polish origin. Spreading of antrax was apparently contained in last possible minute by stopping the train carrying the cattle before its cargo was distributed to numerous farms.

Might be worth noting that the article also lists numerous cases of Soviets suspecting Finnish use of chemical weapons. Before the war both sides had spent had spent considerable effort teaching their soldiers about danger of enemy possibly using chemical weapons, which apparently resulted large number of false suspicions. Finnish military had no chemical weapons beyond small samples used for research & study purposes. According book that I recently read, Finnish industry had capability for manufacturing gas and during Winter War was in readiness to start production if ordered so. But since the Soviets did not use gas warfare in large scale, that order was never issued.

Jarkko

Thank you for the abstract! The second article in the local newspaper was printed on the 11th December (no issue on the 10th because it was a Sunday) says "The defenders have been subjected to violent air bombardment and heavy fire from the Russian artillery, which in some places used gas shells." and there was one before then - I think it was printed on the 7th or 8th. Sadly I forgot to take a photo of the first one.

Commander of the 8th Army Air Force I.I. Kopec on the 1st of January 1940 ordered to prepare one squadron from the 72nd SAP (mixed bomber regiment) and 13th SBAP (speed bomber regiment) for carrying of chemical weapons. According to Kopec, mustard gas could be an effective weapon against Finnish snipers in the forests. In mid-January at the disposal of the Air Force were given chemical pourer devices VAP-500 and experts for their maintenance. In February pilots began to develop tactics of VAP-500 application in winter conditions, using a mixture of oil and kerosene as a training poison. In February also began field testing of bombs with mustard gas and lewisite at low temperatures. But, fortunately, the Winter war ended three days after the completion of these tests.

Quite interesting, but I don't see how gas could have been an economical nor effective way of clearing out snipers.