Group/shared air victory system is just very confusing and unreliable. It is better to count individual claims in my opinion.
But some of the overclaims in official Soviet unit records of Winter War - 25 IAP:
On 2.2.1940 Soviet 25 IAP claimed 12 Finnish fighters, but Finns lost only one Fokker D XXI (FR-81) on that day. One of the claimants was the famous ace Piotr Kozachenko - very difficult to tell if he was the 25 IAP pilot really scoring that day or one of the other claimers of 25 IAP. Optimism and imagination seem to have created lots of air victories on that day - 12 claims, but only one enemy down. Is it possible to overclaim 12:1 innocently in pure good faith? Maybe for bomber gunners, but for fighter pilots?
Piotr Kozachenko of 25 IAP was credited with 4 air victories from Winter War and thus one of the Soviet top guns in Winter War. Only his claim on Fokker D XXI on 2.2.1940 is possible according to Finnish sources and only one of 12 claims of 25 IAP of that day is truly confirmed by Finnish sources. As Kozachenko claimed just one Fokker D XXI on 2.2.1940, the chance of his air victory on that day being true is about 8,33 %. One twelth possibility of air victory - instead of 4 air victories just one "probable" with little chance of it being confirmed. I guess that it is better to look for some other Soviet pilots as the true Soviet top guns of Winter War. And with those I do not mean the guys with most (over)claims but the ones whose claims can be verified by Finnish loss records. And why not as complete list as possible of all Soviet fighter pilots whose individual claims have been verified by the study of Finnish sources?
More 25 IAP claims:
On 19.12.1939 claimed 2 light bombers and 4 fighters, of which one Fokker CX (FK-95) is confirmed by Finnish loss records
On 23.12.1939 claimed 3 fighters and 2 recce planes, of which one Fokker CX (FK-96) is confirmed by Finnish loss records
On 17.2.1940 claimed 2 air victories, of this possibly one was forcelaned Fokker D XXI (FR-89) with wounded pilot, but the plane was not written off and is not mentioned to have been damaged by any serious degree in Finnish records.
On 19.2.1940 claimed 4 Finnish fighters, one might be Fokker D XXI (FR-80) but it was more probably shot down by a bomber gunner of 1 AP.
On 27.2.1940 claimed 1 Finnish fighter, no confirmation by Finnish loss records
On 7.3.1940 claimed 1 Finnish bomber, which indeed seems to have been Bristol Blenheim BL-114 of Finnish Llv 46.
On 10.3.1940 claimed 1 Finnish bomber damaged, which may have been a Blenheim BL-139 or BL-140.
In total 25 IAP claimed 45 Finnish planes shot down and 1 damaged; the real air victories were 4 destroyed (2 Fokker CX, 1 Fokker D XXI and 1 Blenheim) + 1 probable (on 19.2.1940) and 2 probably damaged. Overclaim 45:4 or about 11:1 if we count only the truly confirmed Finnish 100 % plane losses matching with the claims of 25 IAP.
Comparison with 49 IAP: 16 claims of destroyed enemy planes, of which 9 confirmed by Finnish loss records. I would consider the 49 IAP records much more correct than 25 IAP records.
Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
Oleg it is interesting to explaine/clear small number difference. When you look at B.S. Szumchim's book, when he gave following, also official, figure:According to official data (Report on the fighting, prepared by the staff of the air force of the red army in the spring of 1940) fighters shot down 211 enemy planes (+22 on the ground), bombers - 146. (excluding victories VVS KBF)
Comparison with Finnish data gives a figure of 38 real victories of Soviet fighters, i.e. overclaim 1 to 5.5. The bombers the situation is much worse, of course.
213 - shot down by fighters,
146 - shot down by bombers gunners
and next 22 destroyed on the ground
All of course land avaition victories (VVS RKKA), all 381 credited victories.
You have given 211 and Szumchim - 213 , what is this, a type error?
To Durb.
BTW, of 381 claimed by Soviet pilots and bombers' crews victories 320 were shot down fighters.The Soviet claims/actual Finnish losses 411:38 makes
It is wrong to mix victory/claims achived by fighters and by bombers crews, it is total nonsens. Eagles are not never the same as ducks, both animal are total different birds and habits, but of course both can excellent fly and swim (second ones).
Durb you still does not make any distiction between "an eagles and a duck"? You still thing: bird is a bird, it can fly! It is funny but ?...
This list of Soviet's claims is not 100 % accurate. There are not information about claims of Soviet's A/A amd MG's A/A units. Soviet had very strong A/A units and of course they also claimed some victories, very small but always. If we want to be accurate we should remembr, that Soviet A/A had also some credited victories (5 if I'm right remember destroyed FAF's planes). The same problem is with Finnish A/A units and their long list of vicotries and real Soviet losses.
mw
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
Finnish air victories in Winter War were in total 196 according to official SPK 758 archive data (war diaries) of Finnish Air Defence and they have been upgraded to 207 in the books of SIH series - the figure includes both fighter units claims and the claims of bomber / recce gunners. No one finds it odd that the total number of air victories of all Finnish air units are given as an combined info. Why it is so strange or stupid to represent corresponding number in Soviet case?
That Soviet air forces were credited with 411 air victories just means the figure of all the confirmed claims of all Soviet air units during Winter War. No nonsense figure at all but just the whole picture of combined official air victory stats of Soviet air forces including both all the Army and all the Naval units. Nothing to do with the difference between ducks and eagles. Of course the breakdown between different units gives more complete picture and and then you can start to talk about ducks and eagles if you wish. And looking the records of different units show that some units were more accurate in their air victory account than others - compare for example 25 IAP and 49 IAP.
Soviet AA / ground fire victories in Winter War - according to SPK (war diaries) of Finnish Air Defence eight Finnish planes were lost due to Soviet AA / ground fire. Slon gives above 38 Finnish losses credited to Soviet fighters, according to SPK the Finnish air combat losses were 35 vs. fighters. Of 4 Finnish combat losses I have not yet checked the real causes of losses - in SPK summary they are under the more or less mysterious label "other enemy caused". I do not know if later research has shown 2 previously "other enemy caused" losses having been caused by Soviet fighters. About the one previously missed Fokker CX plane and its crew MIA in official war diaries (as destiny unknown for Finnish Air Force at the time of compiling SPK info) - it is nowadays known that the plane (FK-81) was shot down by a fighter of 49 IAP on 26.1.1940 and that the Finnish aircrew was KIA in air combat.
SPK number of air combat losses of 35 + 1 missed plane now shown to be a victim of 49 IAP + probably two similar cases = Slon´s number of 38?
Interestingly some SIH books give Winter War combat losses of Finnish Air Forces as 53, so it may be that also the Finnish combat loss figures have been upgraded by later research above those published in SPK 758 archive data (47). In these upgraded number belongs also the previously mentioned loss of FK-81, which previously was just a mysterious disappearance.
It would be great if we could know the destiny of all Finnish and Soviet airmen MIA during fateful flights of Winter War, but that is probably impossible. It is actually saddest destiny for any soldier to be lost and die MIA.
That Soviet air forces were credited with 411 air victories just means the figure of all the confirmed claims of all Soviet air units during Winter War. No nonsense figure at all but just the whole picture of combined official air victory stats of Soviet air forces including both all the Army and all the Naval units. Nothing to do with the difference between ducks and eagles. Of course the breakdown between different units gives more complete picture and and then you can start to talk about ducks and eagles if you wish. And looking the records of different units show that some units were more accurate in their air victory account than others - compare for example 25 IAP and 49 IAP.
Soviet AA / ground fire victories in Winter War - according to SPK (war diaries) of Finnish Air Defence eight Finnish planes were lost due to Soviet AA / ground fire. Slon gives above 38 Finnish losses credited to Soviet fighters, according to SPK the Finnish air combat losses were 35 vs. fighters. Of 4 Finnish combat losses I have not yet checked the real causes of losses - in SPK summary they are under the more or less mysterious label "other enemy caused". I do not know if later research has shown 2 previously "other enemy caused" losses having been caused by Soviet fighters. About the one previously missed Fokker CX plane and its crew MIA in official war diaries (as destiny unknown for Finnish Air Force at the time of compiling SPK info) - it is nowadays known that the plane (FK-81) was shot down by a fighter of 49 IAP on 26.1.1940 and that the Finnish aircrew was KIA in air combat.
SPK number of air combat losses of 35 + 1 missed plane now shown to be a victim of 49 IAP + probably two similar cases = Slon´s number of 38?
Interestingly some SIH books give Winter War combat losses of Finnish Air Forces as 53, so it may be that also the Finnish combat loss figures have been upgraded by later research above those published in SPK 758 archive data (47). In these upgraded number belongs also the previously mentioned loss of FK-81, which previously was just a mysterious disappearance.
It would be great if we could know the destiny of all Finnish and Soviet airmen MIA during fateful flights of Winter War, but that is probably impossible. It is actually saddest destiny for any soldier to be lost and die MIA.
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
From the report of this battle clearly shows that in many cases the pilots shoot at one and the same plane. In many cases pilots actually did not say that he shot down the plane. Victory, however, counted all as an individual. This is further evidence that the Soviet command not very worried about the validity of statements about the victories. But "improve the image" staff workers are not against any army.durb wrote:Is it possible to overclaim 12:1 innocently in pure good faith? Maybe for bomber gunners, but for fighter pilots?
Piotr Kozachenko of 25 IAP was credited with 4 air victories from Winter War and thus one of the Soviet top guns in Winter War.
Kozachenko had 1 personal and group 4 victory. 1 "twin-engine fighter" personally 2.02.40 and 4 D. XXI 19.02. paired with G.M.Sokolov.
1 C.X and 4 fighters (ink. 2 D.XXI)On 19.12.1939 claimed 2 light bombers and 4 fighters, of which one Fokker CX (FK-95) is confirmed by Finnish loss records
3 C.X and 2 "fighner-biplanes".On 23.12.1939 claimed 3 fighters and 2 recce planes, of which one Fokker CX (FK-96) is confirmed by Finnish loss records
3 D.XXIOn 17.2.1940 claimed 2 air victories, of this possibly one was forcelaned Fokker D XXI (FR-89) with wounded pilot, but the plane was not written off and is not mentioned to have been damaged by any serious degree in Finnish records.
18.02 - 1 bomber + 2 fighters
19.02 - 6 D.XXIOn 19.2.1940 claimed 4 Finnish fighters, one might be Fokker D XXI (FR-80) but it was more probably shot down by a bomber gunner of 1 AP.
25.02 - 3 "Bulldogs"
26.02 - 2 D.XXI
1 D.XXI on groundOn 27.2.1940 claimed 1 Finnish fighter, no confirmation by Finnish loss records
1 "Blenheim" (with 7 IAP)On 7.3.1940 claimed 1 Finnish bomber, which indeed seems to have been Bristol Blenheim BL-114 of Finnish Llv 46.
No victoriesOn 10.3.1940 claimed 1 Finnish bomber damaged, which may have been a Blenheim BL-139 or BL-140.
Yes, there is such a pattern - less planes in the air - the more accurate the data. 145 IAP at all 3 real 4 declared.Comparison with 49 IAP: 16 claims of destroyed enemy planes, of which 9 confirmed by Finnish loss records. I would consider the 49 IAP records much more correct than 25 IAP records.
mirekw wrote:You have given 211 and Szumchim - 213 , what is this, a type error?
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Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
To Slon about Finnish MIA cases and their possible connection with Soviet air victory or AA claims:
Going to the question of MIA airmen - this one interesting and also touching from human point of view (every soldier who was killed in war should have something other than MIA as his final record - also for their families to know clearly if he was KIA or not). I wonder if there is any Soviet document related to this mysterious fate of two Finnish airmen on 23.12.1939:
Ripon 141 with a crew of K.O Norvola (pilot) and observer 0.E. Hallakorpi disappeared during a recce flight on 23.12.1939 toward Ägläjärvi direction (near Tolvajärvi). Finns found the wreck and Norvola´s remains in 1942 - Hallakorpi was buried. Someone found the wreck and buried Hallakorpi - it is most probable that Soviets found the wreck first and buried Hallakorpi. There should be a Soviet report on their finding and perhaps something about the cause why RI-141 crashed in forestry in the area of Tolvajärvi - Ägläjärvi (well north of Ladoga).
Looking from the Red Stars Vol. 7 I did not find Soviet air victory claim corresponding to this one. My guess is that it was operation area of 49 IAP. Soviet ground troops and their AA claims at the area?
There was a bit similar case on 15.1.1940 when Fokker CX - FK 87 did not return from the recce flight towar Pitkäranta (at the northern shore of Ladoga) and the final destiny of its crew was unknown for Finnish Air Force - until it was decades later found out by 49 IAP records that FK 87 had been shot down by I-16 pilots S. Savushkin and S.T. Gorjunov of 49 IAP.
In previous post I mixed the case of FK 87 with the case of FK 81 (shot down on 26.1.1940) which Finns for a long time thought to have been shot down by Soviet AA, when it in fact was shot down by I-153 pilot Vladimir Peshkov of 49 IAP.
And comparing the newer data concerning the loss of two Finnish CX with SPK loss records of Finnish Air Defence in Winter War - Soviet fighters got in "old" Finnish official data only 35 air victories confirmed but now adding the two FK cases above the number rises to 37 and is very near of "Slon number" of 38. I do not yet know what the case nr. 3 was? Some lost plane which has been in old Finnish records been attributed to AA?
Going to the question of MIA airmen - this one interesting and also touching from human point of view (every soldier who was killed in war should have something other than MIA as his final record - also for their families to know clearly if he was KIA or not). I wonder if there is any Soviet document related to this mysterious fate of two Finnish airmen on 23.12.1939:
Ripon 141 with a crew of K.O Norvola (pilot) and observer 0.E. Hallakorpi disappeared during a recce flight on 23.12.1939 toward Ägläjärvi direction (near Tolvajärvi). Finns found the wreck and Norvola´s remains in 1942 - Hallakorpi was buried. Someone found the wreck and buried Hallakorpi - it is most probable that Soviets found the wreck first and buried Hallakorpi. There should be a Soviet report on their finding and perhaps something about the cause why RI-141 crashed in forestry in the area of Tolvajärvi - Ägläjärvi (well north of Ladoga).
Looking from the Red Stars Vol. 7 I did not find Soviet air victory claim corresponding to this one. My guess is that it was operation area of 49 IAP. Soviet ground troops and their AA claims at the area?
There was a bit similar case on 15.1.1940 when Fokker CX - FK 87 did not return from the recce flight towar Pitkäranta (at the northern shore of Ladoga) and the final destiny of its crew was unknown for Finnish Air Force - until it was decades later found out by 49 IAP records that FK 87 had been shot down by I-16 pilots S. Savushkin and S.T. Gorjunov of 49 IAP.
In previous post I mixed the case of FK 87 with the case of FK 81 (shot down on 26.1.1940) which Finns for a long time thought to have been shot down by Soviet AA, when it in fact was shot down by I-153 pilot Vladimir Peshkov of 49 IAP.
And comparing the newer data concerning the loss of two Finnish CX with SPK loss records of Finnish Air Defence in Winter War - Soviet fighters got in "old" Finnish official data only 35 air victories confirmed but now adding the two FK cases above the number rises to 37 and is very near of "Slon number" of 38. I do not yet know what the case nr. 3 was? Some lost plane which has been in old Finnish records been attributed to AA?
Last edited by durb on 05 Feb 2015, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
Oleg thanks, it was type error, now is clear.
mw
Probably it was sudden , unexpected attack and the crew did noticed the reason of being shot down. There was such a case in Poland in IX 1939. Polish fighter - 3 or 4 - were very fast shot down by "accurate A/A fire" but in fact were shot down by sudden attacks of few German fighters, who reported such victories.Some lost plane which has been in old Finnish records been attributed to AA?
mw
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
If interested I can put a complete chronological list of (all to me) known FAF combat losses of Winter War (if it is not already available and well written in English in some website).
Of some losses it is not possible to know the exact cause - for example Fokker D XXI "FR 80" on 19.2.1940 may have been shot down by fighters of 7 IAP or by a bomber gunner of 1 AP (VVS KBF) both claiming the same plane (location and date corresponding) - the Finnish info is: "shot down in flames by (enemy) fighters" and thus more supportive to the claim of 7 IAP pilots.
Of some losses it is not possible to know the exact cause - for example Fokker D XXI "FR 80" on 19.2.1940 may have been shot down by fighters of 7 IAP or by a bomber gunner of 1 AP (VVS KBF) both claiming the same plane (location and date corresponding) - the Finnish info is: "shot down in flames by (enemy) fighters" and thus more supportive to the claim of 7 IAP pilots.
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
MS-322. In the Finnish data shot down by fire from the ground. But according to the Soviet data at this time and in this place (near Cape Ristaniemi) st. l-nt Zhuykov (7 IAP) returning from a combat mission met a single Finnish fighter and shot dawn him.durb wrote:And comparing the newer data concerning the loss of two Finnish CX with SPK loss records of Finnish Air Defence in Winter War - Soviet fighters got in "old" Finnish official data only 35 air victories confirmed but now adding the two FK cases above the number rises to 37 and is very near of "Slon number" of 38. I do not yet know what the case nr. 3 was? Some lost plane which has been in old Finnish records been attributed to AA?
In other all right.
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
Hmm, Finnish info regarding to loss of Morane 406 plane MS-322: shot down on 9.3.1940 at 17.00 (Finnish time) by AA over Vilalahti (Bay of Viipuri/Vyborg) during a ground attack. Pilot lt. E. Lupari was WIA. This repeated in all Finnish sources up to now - well established "truth" from Finnish point of view including also C-F Geust´s research.
Geust in Red Stars Vol. 7 at page 117 mentions Zhuykov of 7 IAP claiming 2 enemy fighters on 9.3.1940 but concludes that the Finnish loss of MS-322 does not correspond with Zhuykov´s claims ("no Finnish losses"). Any details of Zhuykov combat report - clock time (Moscow/Finnish time?) etc?
This makes also me to be doubtful of Zhuykov´s claim, but who knows the truth after all the decades? Let´s say that it could be possible but we can not be 100 % sure.
However accepting Zhuykov claim as legitimate would give following structure to FAF combat losses of Winter War: 38 air combat losses, 5 losses due to AA and 4 to "other causes" related to enemy activity in Finnish loss stats (SPK 758). Probably those last mentioned 4 of "other causes" would deserve some research to find out more exact detail of the cause and destiny of those planes (+ their aircrew).
Of the Soviet losses - how many planes and airmen went missing and "disappeared" during Winter War? Geust in his book (at page 294) mentions that "at least 27 (VVS RKKA) aircraft went missing". How many Soviet airmen of Winter War are still MIA without knowledge of their destiny even today?
Geust in Red Stars Vol. 7 at page 117 mentions Zhuykov of 7 IAP claiming 2 enemy fighters on 9.3.1940 but concludes that the Finnish loss of MS-322 does not correspond with Zhuykov´s claims ("no Finnish losses"). Any details of Zhuykov combat report - clock time (Moscow/Finnish time?) etc?
This makes also me to be doubtful of Zhuykov´s claim, but who knows the truth after all the decades? Let´s say that it could be possible but we can not be 100 % sure.
However accepting Zhuykov claim as legitimate would give following structure to FAF combat losses of Winter War: 38 air combat losses, 5 losses due to AA and 4 to "other causes" related to enemy activity in Finnish loss stats (SPK 758). Probably those last mentioned 4 of "other causes" would deserve some research to find out more exact detail of the cause and destiny of those planes (+ their aircrew).
Of the Soviet losses - how many planes and airmen went missing and "disappeared" during Winter War? Geust in his book (at page 294) mentions that "at least 27 (VVS RKKA) aircraft went missing". How many Soviet airmen of Winter War are still MIA without knowledge of their destiny even today?
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
There is some truth to this...I must agree. The Ukonsalmi winter base was left after the battle.Slon-76 wrote:The failure of the aircraft was mainly related to the fact that the Finnish command tried to use them on the front line. Where the superiority of the Soviet fighter was overwhelming. For the month of February 29, LLv 26 lost 7 machines, almost as much as LLv 24 since the beginning of the war.durb wrote: When it comes to losses of Gladiators, I think that they are "overpresented" due to one unfortunate air combat of 29.2.1940 when Gladiators were practically ambushed by 68 IAP. The whole Ruokolahti combat started in so disadvantegous position for Finns, that from the basis of Ruokolahti combat one should not make too far going conclusions of the performance of Gladiators in whole Winter War. I think that Gladiators did it quite well and their losses were comparable to the losses of Fokker D XXI units.
The attack on the Gladiators well planned before...and soviets knew that pilot on this squadron was the son of the Lapuan Liike head figure. It was the most succesfull attack of the soviet AF. Nearly all Gladiators were wiped out as they were still scrambling.
Normal duty; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8dT44PyfUE
Last edited by Topspeed on 25 Feb 2015, 22:08, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
Gloster Gladiator was not that much worse technically when compared to Fokker D XXI - the Gladiator Mk. II could achieve almost same max. top speed as Fokker D XXI. Gladiator was more nimble and better for dogfight than Fokker D XXI so it made some sense to use it as a front fighter to cover Fokker D XXI, which was an interceptor to shoot down bombers.
The losses of Gladiator were higher than those of Fokker D XXI and the claims/losses -ratio something like 3:1 whereas Fokkers made it up to 16:1 in Winter War. But one has to take in account circumstances:
- Gladiators began to be employed in Jan/Feb. 1940 when Soviets improved notably their tactics in airwar against Finland and their fighter units became efficient - the period Jan/Feb 1940 was much more critical in airwar than the period Dec. 1939 - early Jan. 1940.
- Gladiators fought more often against Soviet fighters than Fokker D XXI´s, which were employed mainly against unescorted Soviet bomber formations (leading to many relatively easy air victories giving very advantageous "kill/loss" -ratio for Fokker pilots)
And a question to those critical on Gladiator: what other planes there were in offer to strengthen Finnish fighter force as quickly as possible in January 1940? Who seriously believes that there was realistic chance to have something like Spitfires (or Hurricanes) flying over Finland in January 1940? Brewster Buffalos would have been great also, but as it is known there was no chance to get Buffalos in great numbers to Finland for the critical period of Winter War - for that war they came too late. Gladiator was the best that could be get quickly in the service of Finnish Air Force thinking the realistic purchase situation in Dec. 1939/Jan. 1940.
I think that Gladiators filled their purpose in Winter War with reasonable results - if we are to believe the claims records, the "kill/loss" -ratio was about 3:1 (14 combat losses vs. about 40 air victory claims). Maybe by Finnish Air Force standards "too low", but by any international standard very decent result.
After Fokker D XXI the Gladiator was the second most important fighter plane and workhorse of Finnish Air Force during Winter War. The Moranes and the Fiats came later and achieved less.
The losses of Gladiator were higher than those of Fokker D XXI and the claims/losses -ratio something like 3:1 whereas Fokkers made it up to 16:1 in Winter War. But one has to take in account circumstances:
- Gladiators began to be employed in Jan/Feb. 1940 when Soviets improved notably their tactics in airwar against Finland and their fighter units became efficient - the period Jan/Feb 1940 was much more critical in airwar than the period Dec. 1939 - early Jan. 1940.
- Gladiators fought more often against Soviet fighters than Fokker D XXI´s, which were employed mainly against unescorted Soviet bomber formations (leading to many relatively easy air victories giving very advantageous "kill/loss" -ratio for Fokker pilots)
And a question to those critical on Gladiator: what other planes there were in offer to strengthen Finnish fighter force as quickly as possible in January 1940? Who seriously believes that there was realistic chance to have something like Spitfires (or Hurricanes) flying over Finland in January 1940? Brewster Buffalos would have been great also, but as it is known there was no chance to get Buffalos in great numbers to Finland for the critical period of Winter War - for that war they came too late. Gladiator was the best that could be get quickly in the service of Finnish Air Force thinking the realistic purchase situation in Dec. 1939/Jan. 1940.
I think that Gladiators filled their purpose in Winter War with reasonable results - if we are to believe the claims records, the "kill/loss" -ratio was about 3:1 (14 combat losses vs. about 40 air victory claims). Maybe by Finnish Air Force standards "too low", but by any international standard very decent result.
After Fokker D XXI the Gladiator was the second most important fighter plane and workhorse of Finnish Air Force during Winter War. The Moranes and the Fiats came later and achieved less.
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
The aces and air victories of Finnish side have been well studied and even compared with Soviet loss records in various books, so it is a high time for the similar summary of the other side. Below my modest effort based on Geust 2011 (Winter War in Air, Red Stars 7) and Pajari 1971 (Talvisota ilmassa).
Soviet air victories in Winter War - "undisputed" individual scores of destroyed enemy planes as verified by Finnish loss records and thus 100 % "legitimate":
St. lt. Peshkov, Vladimir N. (49 IAP, I-153), 2 air victories:
Fokker CX (FK-81), shot down over Uuksu on 26.1.1940
Bristol Blenheim (BL-113), shot down over Ladoga (Pitkäranta/Valamo) on 18.2.1940
Kapt. Karanchentsev, A. K. (49 IAP, I-153), 1 air victory:
Bristol Blenheim (BL-119), shot down over Ladoga (Syskyjärvi/Virolampi) on 26.2.1940
Kapt. Sokol, P. (145 IAP, I-15 bis), 1 air victory:
Junkers K. 43 (JU-126), shot down over Kuolajärvi on 24.12.1939
Lt. Konkin (145 IAP, I-15 bis), 1 air victory:
Gloster Gladiator (F-19), shot down near Märkäjärvi on 23.1.1940
Yefimov (7 DBAP, DB-3 gunner), 1 air victory:
Fokker D XXI (FR-84), shot down over Tampere on 2.3.1940
St. lt. Mihaijlyuk (7 IAP, I-16), 1 air victory:
Fiat G 50 (FA-12), shot down over Utti on 27.2.1940
Marchenko (7 IAP, I-16), 1 air victory:
Gloster Gladiator (GL-279) shot down near Kirvu on 10.3.1940 (Geust claims in the 7 IAP chapter of his book that there were no Finnish losses on that day but he seems to have forgotten the loss of GL-279 which however is included in the appendix table 4 of Soviet air victory claims of Red Stars 7 - Marchenko´s claim and the actual loss of Finnish Gladiator fighter on that day and also the location seem to fit together enough well, so I would consider this "legitimate")
Individual Soviet claims for further study - "probables":
St. lt. Iosifl I. Gejbo (7 IAP, I-16) or Lt. Shvetsov (23 IAP, I-153): Bristol Blenheim (BL 133), shot down over Ylämaa (Geibo) or 4 km on west of Viipuri on 10.3.1940 (Shvetsov)
Skryabin (7 IAP, I-16): Bristol Blenheim (BL-122) shot down over Vilaniemi on 7.3.1940 - according to Finnish info the plane was lost in air combat against enemy fighters over Säkkijärvi. The BL-122 could have been shot down also by joint effort of 25 IAP pilot st. lt. Dyachenko and some 7 IAP pilots. On the same day also another Blenheim (BL-144) was reportedly shot down by 7 IAP (?) fighters over Koivisto (?). It has remained unclear which Soviet pilots shot down the BL-122 and BL-144 on 7.3.1940.
Zhujkov (7 IAP, I-16): claims of two 2 enemy fighters on 9.3.1940, of which legitimate might be a Morane 406 (MS-322) shot down near Vilalahti on 9.3.1940 - according to Finnish combat report MS-322 was shot down by enemy AA during ground attack operation. Also 7 IAP pilots Karenukhin, Nikitin and the duo Globov & Ivanov claimed one Finnish fighter shot down on 9.3.1940. However Finns lost only the MS 322 in combat at that day - was it AA or Zhujkov or someone else which shot it down?
When it comes to the rest of the "legitimate" (= which can be verified by Finnish loss records) Soviet air victories during Winter War, they should be considered as collective air victories of the units with many "shareholders". Some Soviet pilots had more than one "share" to show that they participated more than once in air combats in which Soviet achieved some real success (not just erroneus, overoptimistic or imagination-based claims).
Shared air victory claims are in my opinion very problematic in "individualistic" counting - it might be that the pilot indeed had some decisive role bringing down a enemy plane in combat or that he was just flying around without playing any important role in the combat. I would count the sum of shared victories only to the collective "unit account" and leave them out of individual scores of air victories, but it is a matter of taste. Both Soviets and Finnish counted "shared" air victories also to the tally of individual pilots and this has generated some confusion when the difference of full individual claim and a "share" has been ignored in some history writing. For example two "half-shares" are not the same as one "full-share" of air victory although in simple mathematic stats ½ + ½ makes 1. Neither is 2 x ½ air victory same as 2 destroyed enemy planes in pilot´s actual individual tally (although in some air forces also shared "kills" were counted as "full kills"). When there is no clear evidence which pilot actually shot down a enemy plane in combat, it can be concluded only that pilots of certain patrol/flight/squadron accomplished that together and the "full" accomplishment goes only to the unit record.
The Finnish counting of air victories has been also somewhat inprecise in some history writing. For example Ilmari Juutilainen is usually credited with 94 air victories, but of these only 76 were really confirmed by Finnish Air Force and this is often ignored. And for quite many Finnish airwar history aficionados it seems to be difficult to accept as "legitimate/undisputed" Finnish air victories only those confirmed by Soviet loss records or documented wreck findings with serial numbers or other identification (but not wreck findings mentioned only in less reliable oral memory/tradition). The usual explanations are that Soviet unit records are incomplete/inprecise (or even falsified to hide losses). However, the strict principle of "legitimate" or "undisputed" air victory should be the same with both the Finnish and Soviet air victory records if we want to have the same standards for the "legitimate/undisputed" air victory for both sides. There should not be double standards.
Soviet air victories in Winter War - "undisputed" individual scores of destroyed enemy planes as verified by Finnish loss records and thus 100 % "legitimate":
St. lt. Peshkov, Vladimir N. (49 IAP, I-153), 2 air victories:
Fokker CX (FK-81), shot down over Uuksu on 26.1.1940
Bristol Blenheim (BL-113), shot down over Ladoga (Pitkäranta/Valamo) on 18.2.1940
Kapt. Karanchentsev, A. K. (49 IAP, I-153), 1 air victory:
Bristol Blenheim (BL-119), shot down over Ladoga (Syskyjärvi/Virolampi) on 26.2.1940
Kapt. Sokol, P. (145 IAP, I-15 bis), 1 air victory:
Junkers K. 43 (JU-126), shot down over Kuolajärvi on 24.12.1939
Lt. Konkin (145 IAP, I-15 bis), 1 air victory:
Gloster Gladiator (F-19), shot down near Märkäjärvi on 23.1.1940
Yefimov (7 DBAP, DB-3 gunner), 1 air victory:
Fokker D XXI (FR-84), shot down over Tampere on 2.3.1940
St. lt. Mihaijlyuk (7 IAP, I-16), 1 air victory:
Fiat G 50 (FA-12), shot down over Utti on 27.2.1940
Marchenko (7 IAP, I-16), 1 air victory:
Gloster Gladiator (GL-279) shot down near Kirvu on 10.3.1940 (Geust claims in the 7 IAP chapter of his book that there were no Finnish losses on that day but he seems to have forgotten the loss of GL-279 which however is included in the appendix table 4 of Soviet air victory claims of Red Stars 7 - Marchenko´s claim and the actual loss of Finnish Gladiator fighter on that day and also the location seem to fit together enough well, so I would consider this "legitimate")
Individual Soviet claims for further study - "probables":
St. lt. Iosifl I. Gejbo (7 IAP, I-16) or Lt. Shvetsov (23 IAP, I-153): Bristol Blenheim (BL 133), shot down over Ylämaa (Geibo) or 4 km on west of Viipuri on 10.3.1940 (Shvetsov)
Skryabin (7 IAP, I-16): Bristol Blenheim (BL-122) shot down over Vilaniemi on 7.3.1940 - according to Finnish info the plane was lost in air combat against enemy fighters over Säkkijärvi. The BL-122 could have been shot down also by joint effort of 25 IAP pilot st. lt. Dyachenko and some 7 IAP pilots. On the same day also another Blenheim (BL-144) was reportedly shot down by 7 IAP (?) fighters over Koivisto (?). It has remained unclear which Soviet pilots shot down the BL-122 and BL-144 on 7.3.1940.
Zhujkov (7 IAP, I-16): claims of two 2 enemy fighters on 9.3.1940, of which legitimate might be a Morane 406 (MS-322) shot down near Vilalahti on 9.3.1940 - according to Finnish combat report MS-322 was shot down by enemy AA during ground attack operation. Also 7 IAP pilots Karenukhin, Nikitin and the duo Globov & Ivanov claimed one Finnish fighter shot down on 9.3.1940. However Finns lost only the MS 322 in combat at that day - was it AA or Zhujkov or someone else which shot it down?
When it comes to the rest of the "legitimate" (= which can be verified by Finnish loss records) Soviet air victories during Winter War, they should be considered as collective air victories of the units with many "shareholders". Some Soviet pilots had more than one "share" to show that they participated more than once in air combats in which Soviet achieved some real success (not just erroneus, overoptimistic or imagination-based claims).
Shared air victory claims are in my opinion very problematic in "individualistic" counting - it might be that the pilot indeed had some decisive role bringing down a enemy plane in combat or that he was just flying around without playing any important role in the combat. I would count the sum of shared victories only to the collective "unit account" and leave them out of individual scores of air victories, but it is a matter of taste. Both Soviets and Finnish counted "shared" air victories also to the tally of individual pilots and this has generated some confusion when the difference of full individual claim and a "share" has been ignored in some history writing. For example two "half-shares" are not the same as one "full-share" of air victory although in simple mathematic stats ½ + ½ makes 1. Neither is 2 x ½ air victory same as 2 destroyed enemy planes in pilot´s actual individual tally (although in some air forces also shared "kills" were counted as "full kills"). When there is no clear evidence which pilot actually shot down a enemy plane in combat, it can be concluded only that pilots of certain patrol/flight/squadron accomplished that together and the "full" accomplishment goes only to the unit record.
The Finnish counting of air victories has been also somewhat inprecise in some history writing. For example Ilmari Juutilainen is usually credited with 94 air victories, but of these only 76 were really confirmed by Finnish Air Force and this is often ignored. And for quite many Finnish airwar history aficionados it seems to be difficult to accept as "legitimate/undisputed" Finnish air victories only those confirmed by Soviet loss records or documented wreck findings with serial numbers or other identification (but not wreck findings mentioned only in less reliable oral memory/tradition). The usual explanations are that Soviet unit records are incomplete/inprecise (or even falsified to hide losses). However, the strict principle of "legitimate" or "undisputed" air victory should be the same with both the Finnish and Soviet air victory records if we want to have the same standards for the "legitimate/undisputed" air victory for both sides. There should not be double standards.
Re: Winter War: Finns vs. Soviet in air combat
Col. Feodor Sverdlov who was a staff officer for the Eleventh Guards Army at Kursk and later a professor at the Frunze Military Academy presented in 1994 chart showing Soviet air victory claims to German losses of Operation Citadel, Sverdlov stated that “the enemy always suffers 30% more losses than you.”durb wrote: ↑03 Feb 2015, 19:28So Red Army Air Force (VVS RKKA) was credited in total with 357 destroyed Finnish planes and if we add to this the 54 claims of Baltic Fleet Air Force (VVS KBF) we end up with 411 destroyed Finnish planes by Soviet air forces in total during the Winter War. ----
The Soviet claims/actual Finnish losses 411:38 makes the Soviet overclaiming be in air combats of Winter War still to be little more than 10:1 in Winter War.
Colonel Sverdlov knew from his experiences in the war (and he was there from the Battle of Moscow to the end), that they regularly reported more German losses than they suffered. This was just standard procedure.
Sverdlov's statement should be taken more seriously as just type of sarcasm and grin. So indeed if "the enemy always suffered 30% more losses than you" then we likely have formula of their (likely) own losses as X = claims/1.3, or something like that.
411/1.3 = 316
According newest book of C-F. Geust: "Punailmavoimat talvisodassa" he gave according sources of TsAMO (? i guess) and achieves of VVS KBF total losses for VVS/PVO/VVS KBF during Winter War:
- 119 aircraft shot down by Finnish AA units
- 131 aircraft shot down by FAF fighters
with total losses about 900 so that over 70% of all losses were not caused by FAF/AA units but accidents, fatal mistakes, bad skills, weather, technical issues, hesitate ordered missions, etc or combination of some of these.
The fact that majority of Soviet aircraft losses during Winter War were not caused by Finnish AA gunners or brave pilots should not be any kind of revolutionary inspiration. Nor the idea that Finnish pilots have had 2:3 and AA gunners 1:3 over claiming. Finns didn't shot down as many aircraft as they claimed but still Soviet units lost more aircraft that even Finns could imagine.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."
- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front
- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front