The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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John Hilly
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4021

Post by John Hilly » 30 Apr 2015, 17:57

Aleksander P wrote:I'll let someone else make up the next question, so everybody feel free to!
Well, here's a new one.
This Collar Tab of a Dragoon Leutenant doesn't look normal, but it isn't an error in manufacturing. Why?
Collar tab.jpg
With best, J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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John Hilly
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4022

Post by John Hilly » 02 May 2015, 17:28

If Marshall Mannerheim would still have been a junior officer at the time, he would have used these collar patches.

With best, J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"


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John Hilly
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4023

Post by John Hilly » 03 May 2015, 16:23

This is a clue:
SA-kuva 28240.jpg
A hint!
SA-kuva 28240.jpg (20.37 KiB) Viewed 1939 times
With best, J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Karelia
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4024

Post by Karelia » 03 May 2015, 19:46

The blue stitching seems lighter than the normal colour, but that might be due to exposure to the sun.

Just a guess: perhaps these collar tabs were made by a specific tailor, the one which Mannerheim also used? And maybe he for some (vanity?) reason used non-standard colour stitching?

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Aleksander P
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4025

Post by Aleksander P » 04 May 2015, 13:59

The edging is gray.

The collar tab is a different variation than the normal one, as it is shorter than normal and has a more rectangular shape?

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4026

Post by John Hilly » 04 May 2015, 22:58

Aleksander P wrote:The collar tab is a different variation than the normal one, as it is shorter than normal and has a more rectangular shape?
Yes, but the ones in question were official collar patches.
Look under the collar and compare with...

With best, J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Karelia
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4027

Post by Karelia » 05 May 2015, 00:17

Aleksander P wrote:The edging is gray.

...
Well, it looks like kind of grayish light blue. Anyway the edging should be blue for Uusimaa Dragoons.

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4028

Post by Aleksander P » 05 May 2015, 02:02

John Hilly wrote:
Aleksander P wrote:The collar tab is a different variation than the normal one, as it is shorter than normal and has a more rectangular shape?
Yes, but the ones in question were official collar patches.
Look under the collar and compare with...

With best, J-P :milwink:
Karelia wrote:
Aleksander P wrote:The edging is gray.

...
Well, it looks like kind of grayish light blue. Anyway the edging should be blue for Uusimaa Dragoons.
Sorry. I have similar ones in my collection and the edging is gray for normal cavalry and not URR, also the shape is the normal one.
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Ratsuvaki.jpg

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Karelia
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4029

Post by Karelia » 05 May 2015, 12:20

Aleksander P wrote:
Karelia wrote: Well, it looks like kind of grayish light blue. Anyway the edging should be blue for Uusimaa Dragoons.
Sorry. I have similar ones in my collection and the edging is gray for normal cavalry and not URR, also the shape is the normal one.
I'm a bit puzzled now. What is "normal" cavalry with gray (?) collar pad edging? I don't know any such units with that kind of pads. I'm only aware of the Häme Mounted Jaegers (yellow pads with red edging) and Uusimaa Dragoons (yellow pads with blue edging).

For me the pads in your collection look like Uusimaa Dragoons' pads, with the faded blue edging.
Last edited by Karelia on 05 May 2015, 12:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4030

Post by Karelia » 05 May 2015, 12:28

A new try to the quiz...

The pads are of different shape, because they are meant to be worn with the old M22 uniform, which Mannerheim is wearing in the photo. The "normal" tabs are meant be used with the M36 onwards, and are subsequently shaped differentally, like the ones Aleksander P has.

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4031

Post by Aleksander P » 05 May 2015, 13:05

Karelia wrote:
Aleksander P wrote:
Karelia wrote: Well, it looks like kind of grayish light blue. Anyway the edging should be blue for Uusimaa Dragoons.
Sorry. I have similar ones in my collection and the edging is gray for normal cavalry and not URR, also the shape is the normal one.
I'm a bit puzzled now. What is "normal" cavalry with gray (?) collar pad edging? I don't know any such units with that kind of pads. I'm only aware of the Häme Mounted Jaegers (yellow pads with red edging) and Uusimaa Dragoons (yellow pads with blue edging).

For me the pads in your collection look like Uusimaa Dragoons' pads, with the faded blue edging.
Poor choice of words on my part. I meant that my collar tabs are for just cavalry, which was a separate unit from URR and Häme. I could be misinformed on this.

The book Asepuku M/36 mentions these separately, as you can see in the scan that I attached. Also a wartime poster for collar tabs mentions yellow/gray collar tabs as "ratsuväki" - "cavalry".
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ratsuvaki.jpg
ratsuvaki.jpg (72.94 KiB) Viewed 1857 times
WP_000051.jpg

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Aleksander P
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4032

Post by Aleksander P » 05 May 2015, 13:12

Karelia wrote:A new try to the quiz...

The pads are of different shape, because they are meant to be worn with the old M22 uniform, which Mannerheim is wearing in the photo. The "normal" tabs are meant be used with the M36 onwards, and are subsequently shaped differentally, like the ones Aleksander P has.
Good guess. M39 tabs for M22 uniform.

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4033

Post by John Hilly » 06 May 2015, 14:19

Karelia wrote:The pads are of different shape, because they are meant to be worn with the old M22 uniform, which Mannerheim is wearing in the photo. The "normal" tabs are meant be used with the M36 onwards, and are subsequently shaped differentally, like the ones Aleksander P has.
You are getting closer, but the pathces are not for M 22.
These patches are not common, because a change in the collar itself was made only a couple years later.
So, which tunic are we talking about?

With best, J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Karelia
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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4034

Post by Karelia » 06 May 2015, 14:36

Aleksander P wrote:
Karelia wrote: I'm a bit puzzled now. What is "normal" cavalry with gray (?) collar pad edging? I don't know any such units with that kind of pads. I'm only aware of the Häme Mounted Jaegers (yellow pads with red edging) and Uusimaa Dragoons (yellow pads with blue edging).

For me the pads in your collection look like Uusimaa Dragoons' pads, with the faded blue edging.
Poor choice of words on my part. I meant that my collar tabs are for just cavalry, which was a separate unit from URR and Häme. I could be misinformed on this.

The book Asepuku M/36 mentions these separately, as you can see in the scan that I attached. Also a wartime poster for collar tabs mentions yellow/gray collar tabs as "ratsuväki" - "cavalry".
I stand corrected. One learns something new every day! :-)

Your poster explained it well. The grey edging was for the Cavalry Brigade HQ and Cavalry NCO school staffs, i.e. for those not in URR nor HRR.

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

#4035

Post by Karelia » 06 May 2015, 15:22

John Hilly wrote:
Karelia wrote:The pads are of different shape, because they are meant to be worn with the old M22 uniform, which Mannerheim is wearing in the photo. The "normal" tabs are meant be used with the M36 onwards, and are subsequently shaped differentally, like the ones Aleksander P has.
You are getting closer, but the pathces are not for M 22.
These patches are not common, because a change in the collar itself was made only a couple years later.
So, which tunic are we talking about?

With best, J-P :milwink:
I might be getting closer now...:

"For dress occasions-the model of 1939

In 1939 a lighter weight more formal tunic was also developed. While the m/36 was fine for field and parade use, a more formal version was needed for ceremonial purposes or for a formal dress occasion. While the style was similar, the m/39 tunic was intended for dress purposes only and it was reserved for officers use in most occasions. The tailoring of the fit was tighter and the style of the fabric of a higher quality and of lighter construction. The tunic used the hidden button style of the summer tunic on the six front closure buttons as well as the scalloped pockets. Four pockets were included on the dress tunic but the upper two were slanted slightly with dramatically scalloped edges to give a very dramatic impression. The early versions of the jacket used a clip on dark gray wool collar reminiscent of the m/22 tunic. It could be removed prior to washing. This feature was quickly discontinued though as the collar was thinner than the norm and special collar patches were needed. Later versions used the standard m/39 collar patches. These tunics were produced in limited numbers by the army clothing store but in many instances they were privately funded and tailored by the officers themselves. "

http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/Finn ... evised.asp

I was careless earlier when I thought/wrote, that Mannerheim in the photo is wearing M22, when in reality he is wearing M39 earlier version, with the M22-style collar.

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