Defeat of Gladiators - 29 II 1940

[mirekw]

Hi
I wonder if air operation are allowded in this sction? I am focused on th small air forces operation in WW II (as FAF and others small air forces).

In May 2006 had beed edited in Poland my story about [b]Defeat of Gladiators[/b]. This is about [b]air combats over Roukolahti on 29 II 1940[/b]. On this day 23 Soviets I-16, I-153 of 1., 2./68 OIAP had attacked FAF air base (Gladiators and Fokkers D.XXI of LLV 26 and LLv 24).

In about 15 minutes Soviets pilots had claimed about 20 victories over FAF. Finn losses were smaller but heavy (6 fighters = 5 Gladiators + 1 D.XXI, 3 KIA, 3 WIA).
Soviets had lost 2 I-16 (1 KIA +1 PoW) + 7 damaged fighters.
It was the biggest single defeat of FAF in winter war and in the whole WW II.

The story is edited in: [b]Militaria XX wieku 3/2006[/b]. Text has 7 pages of A-4, 2 colors (Gladiator GL-263, D.XXI) and 13 b&w photos.

Text in Polish and English captions.

Regards,

Mirek Wawrzynski

[Esa K]

Hi

I wonder if air operation are allowded in this sction?

Yes, as I´ve got it everything connected to Fenno-Soviet wars 1939-1944 (and sometimes also things connected to the Finnish/German Lapland war 1944-1945) is welcomed here.

And about your article (and other related articles, sites on the net etc etc... I´ve observed for some years now) it´s interesting that theres such a interest for the Finnish air force during WW II in Poland.


Best regards

Esa K

[Harri]

I think down shot Soviet plane were I-16 and 1-153. The first one collided mid-air with Lt. T. Huhanantti flying with Fokker D.XXI. Another was shot down by a lucky airman with AAMG while plane was flying at low level above the Ruokolahti ice airfield. Hit was not noticed at once but young boys found its wreck later from the forest. A single bullet had been hit to a Soviet pilot and he had crash landed. It was told that a pilot who had died on his wound and frozen was sitting next to his crashed plane against a tree.

[mirekw]

Yes
There are some interest in Poland about Finish Air Force subjects, I am one of a few writers, who is writting about this very specific topics (I am generaly focused on small air forces history between 1936-1953, including Finnish too, others interested for me areas: Romania, Yugoslavia, Belgium, Croat, Italian also Soviet one). Last year I edited 2 other stories about FAF (one about 6 Sarvanto's kills in 4 minutes, and second one: Brewster versus Hurricanes both in Militaria XX wieku in 2005).
Yes there were on Soviet side i-16 and I-153, but I do not have any information from Soviets about any loss among I-153 - could be damaged but not lsot.
In fact there was maybe deliberate or not deliberate crash in the air. Soviet say about ramming, I think about rather not deliberatly crash in air.
Soviet Pilot had returned on damaged planes to the base - it was sen. leytnant Yakov Mihin from 2./68 OIAP, in D.XXI was killed Finnish ace (6 victories) of 3./LLv 24 (there are a photo of him in my story) from Kari Stenman collection.

Soviet lost 2 I-16 (one pilot KIA, second one - PoW) the 7 were damaged fighters including Mihin's plane. He laned in onw base and later got Soviet medal of Red Banner for Winter War. Soviet killed pilot was senior leytan D.P. Yefimov of 1./68 IAP - he was escadrila commander, POw was leytant Volohov.

Regards
MirekW

[Juha Tompuri]

Mirek,

Welcome to the Forum.

Regards, Juha

[Alex Yeliseenko]

Yes, this air fight is known and in Russia. But earlier on it did not inform. I have learned about it only in 1997.

Greater losses of the Finnish aircraft have been connected with a mistake of ground observers. The Soviet planes was 24 : 6 I-153 and 18 I-16 (68 Separated Fighter Aviation Regiment). Losses - 1 I-16. Senior lieutenant Efimov was lost. Its plane was brought down by sergeant Suikanen (2/LLv26 - GL-256). One more plane was broke on a return way and seven have received damages. Later some days they have again risen in air.

In total for February, 29th FAF has lost 7 pilots, 5 from them were Finns.

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi Alex (and others)

The Ruokolahti battle is very interesting as there still seems not to be a "clear" pic what happened there then ( I mean mainly the planes shot down: who scored and what)
From what I have read Sgt Sulkanen shot down Ltn Volohov(itsh ?) who prachuted and became POW
Also I have read that another Soviet loss was Senior Ltn Yefimov (the leader of the I-153 eskadrill ) whose plane crashed to the woods.

Regards, Juha

[mirekw]

Hi
Alex
You have mixed 2 battles over Roukolahti into one.

The first was in the morning (about 8 a.m.), when 3 I-16 made reccon mission and one Russian pilots (leytnant Miasicz, got soon his HSU for Winter War) shot down a Gladiator from LLv 26 (Finn was KIA) - Miasicz had claimed 2 victories - Galdiator and Bulldog.

Second battle was at 12.00-12.15, when 23 I-16 and I-153 from 1. and 2./ 68. OIAP had great, incredible luck and attack the Finns having hight adventage and get Finns fighters during their taking off procedure (in the mid air, thye were just getting hight).

In this combat Soviet/Russian had shot down 5 Gladiators and 1 D.XXI - total losses, among personal losses were in fact 2 Danes (one KIA one WIA). So, in the second battle were only 6 total losses on FAF side.
Soviet side had lost 2 planes total + 7 next damaged i tis seocn battle.
In the fris one were some damaged planes (Miasich had got about 80 holes, he landed in own base in such damaged fighter)

Senior leytnat Yefimow was commander of 1./ 68 OIAP of land aviation in 13. Army. He was also a leader of one attacking formation of 12 fighter (9 I-16 + 3 I-153), 2-nd formation was leaded by mayor Gilya (8 I-16 + 3 I-153).

Yes Alex you are right Finns took off thinking that they would be attack Soviet bombers. The ground post had informed them about bomber formation coming. So they took off.

It was FAF's official order to the fighter squadrons to do not participate with any combats with Soviet fighter's power - only bomber force could be attacked by them.
On 1 Finnish servisable fighter there was about 30 Soviet ones in this period of air combat.

Regards,

Mirek Wawrzyński

[Alex Yeliseenko]

Hi
Alex
You have mixed 2 battles over Roukolahti into one.

The first was in the morning (about 8 a.m.), when 3 I-16 made reccon mission and one Russian pilots (leytnant Miasicz, got soon his HSU for Winter War) shot down a Gladiator from LLv 26 (Finn was KIA) - Miasicz had claimed 2 victories - Galdiator and Bulldog.

Second battle was at 12.00-12.15, when 23 I-16 and I-153 from 1. and 2./ 68. OIAP had great, incredible luck and attack the Finns having hight adventage and get Finns fighters during their taking off procedure (in the mid air, thye were just getting hight).

In this combat Soviet/Russian had shot down 5 Gladiators and 1 D.XXI - total losses, among personal losses were in fact 2 Danes (one KIA one WIA). So, in the second battle were only 6 total losses on FAF side.
Soviet side had lost 2 planes total + 7 next damaged i tis seocn battle.
In the fris one were some damaged planes (Miasich had got about 80 holes, he landed in own base in such damaged fighter)

Senior leytnat Yefimow was commander of 1./ 68 OIAP of land aviation in 13. Army. He was also a leader of one attacking formation of 12 fighter (9 I-16 + 3 I-153), 2-nd formation was leaded by mayor Gilya (8 I-16 + 3 I-153).

Yes Alex you are right Finns took off thinking that they would be attack Soviet bombers. The ground post had informed them about bomber formation coming. So they took off.

It was FAF's official order to the fighter squadrons to do not participate with any combats with Soviet fighter's power - only bomber force could be attacked by them.
On 1 Finnish servisable fighter there was about 30 Soviet ones in this period of air combat.

Regards,

Mirek Wawrzyński

Hi, Mirek

I am very glad, that you so well know this theme.

I have cited the general data about losses FAF this day. I used data from the book Michael Zefirov (" Асы Люфтваффе ". Финляндия). I regret, that it has discrepancies. There is one more Russian book about air war in Winter War. " the "Soviet-finnish war. 1939-1940. Volume 2 ". Unfortunately now at me it is not present. As soon as I its purchase, I shall place data in this post.

Best Regards.

Alex. (from Siberia).

[mirekw]

Hi Alex
Yes I know this 2 volumes book, very good indeed co-opertaibe work. If you look at land and navy battles (this second one I think are even better reasarched) very deep daone, about air forces this is realy weak point of this book. The authors feel much more better on land and see areas, then about air combats/air forces. This last one subject is rather aditional made to make full view.
In my opinion thse authors are not very deepley interested in Soviet avaition history.
Anyway there are some interesting data about Winter War and this is solid work, I have it (both volumes) at home - value for money, .

The figures about Soviet air losses in this book are based according old data and there have been not resarched in Russian archives. Russian authors giving datas also from Carl-Fredrik Geust materials and Kari Stenman. C.-F. Geust had made quite strong and solid resarches in Russian aviation archives and he is probably the best sources about Soviet losses in Winter War. Now he is working on a book about air war during Winter War - Red Stars no 6 or no 7.
He had done some times ago co-working book about Russian Baltic Air Forces during Winter War - very good work. There are detail list of losses Baltic Fleet Air Forces.

Regards,
MirekW

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi,

One of the best Finnish sources about the battles at Ruokolahti 29th February 1940 I've read is the study of Yrjö Toivanen.
In addition to the Finnish sources he also has used a Soviet one and a "Soviet-Finnish" one.
The Soviet source he uas used is the 1941 printed Бои в Финляндии I & II ( Finnish War ?, is it the same Alex mentioned as Soviet-finnish war. 1939-1940 ? )
(I don't read Russian but are the books here http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/suomi/index.html and http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/suomi/index.html ? )
The "Finnish-Soviet" source at his study are the interrogation reports of the Ltn Volohov(itsh ?)

The first was in the morning (about 8 a.m.), when 3 I-16 made reccon mission and one Russian pilots (leytnant Miasicz, got soon his HSU for Winter War) shot down a Gladiator from LLv 26 (Finn was KIA) - Miasicz had claimed 2 victories - Galdiator and Bulldog.

Toivanen mentions the two other I-16 pilots as Blinihin and Kuljman.

In the fris one were some damaged planes (Miasich had got about 80 holes, he landed in own base in such damaged fighter)

Toivanen also mentions V.G. Masitsh was wounded from the glass splinters to his face. The Finnish pilot damaging his plane most probably was the Staff Sergeant Ilmari Juutilainen.

Senior leytnat Yefimow was commander of 1./ 68 OIAP of land aviation in 13. Army. He was also a leader of one attacking formation of 12 fighter (9 I-16 + 3 I-153), 2-nd formation was leaded by mayor Gilya (8 I-16 + 3 I-153).

Toivanen mentions:
-Maj. Yakov Gill as Regiment "vice-commader"
-1./68 led by Senior Ltn S.I. Mironov ( about 15 I-16)
-2./68 led by Capt Pershakov ( about 15 I-16)
-3./68 led by Petr M. Petrov ( about 15 I-16)
-4./68 (about 15 I-153) led probably by senior Ltn. Yefimov ( That eskadril joining 68 OIAP 10th January 1940 to replace the original 4./68 which had been earlier sent to East-Carelian front)
The Soviet planes flew at about 5000m height, the 6 I-153 acting as top cover, flying 600m higher than the 17 I-16.


Regards, Juha

[Harri]

Juha,
is that Yrjö Toivanen's study you mentioned in some book (or a book)?

There is also a book "Taivas repesi - Talvisodan tuhoisin ilmataistelu Ruokolahdella" (The Sky Rent - The Most Devastating Aerial Battle of the Winter War at Ruokolahti) by Maija Nevalainen and Pertti Saukkonen published by Ruokolahden Sotaveteraanit ry [The Veterans of Ruokolahti, reg. association] in 1998. It contains also interviews of eye-witnesses.

[Alex Yeliseenko]

I have no many sources about Soviet-Finnish war. Mirek the rights, the second part of the book does not contain descriptions of air fights - today I have looked it.

As to air fights - I know only one detailed book « Allies Luftvaffe » Michael Zefirov. It is published in Moscow in 2003. there are also some good stuff in Russian magazines. Are used given the Finnish historians - Keskinen and some other.

On overland battles are two volumes Soviet-Finland War 1939-1940 with the list of books published about this war with 1940 for 2002. Composers of the book Petrov and Stepakov.

The certain popularity the book Pavel Aptekar - « Soviet-Finland Wars". This book contains a lot of statistics. However it is engaged and shines war almost from the Finnish point of view. Interestingly, in Finland there are historians who showed Winter War from the Soviet point of view?

Sea battles are in books Aleksander Shirokorad. This author on the contrary is considered the most proRussian. But it states the facts precisely.

Best Regards!

[mirekw]

Hi
As I see the subject about Roukolahti is interesting as so far,
Yes I think too that Myasitz from 68. OIAP was hit by Jutillainen in the morning it very good fit to the last one memories nad I have written this in material, crediting him damaging this I-16

To Juha.
I wonder where these below data comming from (sources in Toivanen book).
In this period standard power of flight/escadrila was about 12 planes (there were many oversized escadrilas mostly independend (15-20 planes) and this is look verystange.
Standard regiment had 5 escadrilas each about 12 planes and staff zvieno (3 planes. So regiment had about 60-63 comabt planes. Russian did not stricly keep such full regiment power and some regiment had smaller amount of planes in 3-4 escadrilas.


Toivanen mentions:
-Maj. Yakov Gill as Regiment "vice-commader"
-1./68 led by Senior Ltn S.I. Mironov ( about 15 I-16)
-2./68 led by Capt Pershakov ( about 15 I-16)
-3./68 led by Petr M. Petrov ( about 15 I-16)
-4./68 (about 15 I-153) led probably by senior Ltn. Yefimov ( That eskadril joining 68 OIAP 10th January 1940 to replace the original 4./68 which had been earlier sent to East-Carelian front)
The Soviet planes flew at about 5000m height, the 6 I-153 acting as top cover, flying 600m higher than the 17 I-16.

Second question is about exact if there is in Toivanen, material sources for this Soviet memories from 1940-41. There are tens of memoreis and it is not easy to find this one about 68. OIAP (I know this e-book but I have not yet find the stroy from 68. OIAP)?

To Alex,
I do not say that there are some Finns historian who present the history from Russian point of view. I wanted to say, there are some historians in Finland (like C.-F. Geust - the bast one about this topics, he aslo edited some text in Russia), who want to be as much as possible near true. No matter about political influence and international political relation. In my opinion still in Russia there are many historians, who are writing history according actual political winds/trends, no matter about the true and fact. This is diffrent point in writing about history, and very popular among Russian writers. History is a political tools. For me this is absolutly edident reading many Russian's historians materials for many years (quite many of them).

Regards,
MirekW

[mirekw]

Hi
As I see the subject about Roukolahti is interesting as so far,
Yes I think too that Myasitz from 68. OIAP was hit by Jutillainen in the morning it very good fit to the last one memories nad I have written this in material, crediting him damaging this I-16

To Juha.
I wonder where these below data comming from (sources in Toivanen book).
In this period standard power of flight/escadrila was about 12 planes (there were many oversized escadrilas mostly independend (15-20 planes) and this is look verystange.
Standard regiment had 5 escadrilas each about 12 planes and staff zvieno (3 planes. So regiment had about 60-63 comabt planes. Russian did not stricly keep such full regiment power and some regiment had smaller amount of planes in 3-4 escadrilas.


Toivanen mentions:
-Maj. Yakov Gill as Regiment "vice-commader"
-1./68 led by Senior Ltn S.I. Mironov ( about 15 I-16)
-2./68 led by Capt Pershakov ( about 15 I-16)
-3./68 led by Petr M. Petrov ( about 15 I-16)
-4./68 (about 15 I-153) led probably by senior Ltn. Yefimov ( That eskadril joining 68 OIAP 10th January 1940 to replace the original 4./68 which had been earlier sent to East-Carelian front)
The Soviet planes flew at about 5000m height, the 6 I-153 acting as top cover, flying 600m higher than the 17 I-16.

Second question is about exact if there is in Toivanen, material sources for this Soviet memories from 1940-41. There are tens of memoreis and it is not easy to find this one about 68. OIAP (I know this e-book but I have not yet find the stroy from 68. OIAP)?

To Alex,
I do not say that there are some Finns historian who present the history from Russian point of view. I wanted to say, there are some historians in Finland (like C.-F. Geust - the bast one about this topics, he aslo edited some text in Russia), who want to be as much as possible near true. No matter about political influence and international political relation. In my opinion still in Russia there are many historians, who are writing history according actual political winds/trends, no matter about the true and fact. This is diffrent point in writing about history, and very popular among Russian writers. History is a political tools. For me this is absolutly edident reading many Russian's historians materials for many years (quite many of them).

Regards,
MirekW