Destruction of an August armored train (1944)

[Alex Yeliseenko]

Hello!

I have found such fragment in Russian sources. It is assured, in Finland this theme is known. It refers to « the August armored train ».

« In the middle-end of August, 1944 when fights went already for Pitkyaranta in that area there was a Finnish armored train. In the middle of July this armored train fired passed to defense to the south Loymola batalion 300 guards rifle regiment 37 guards rifle corps which should grasp unit of roads in Loymola. The armored train went from Loymola up to Ljaskela and fired at positions 127 and 99 rifle corps. Command 127 corps has created diversive group with the purpose to destroy an armored train. In group was eight person. All of them have been dressed in Finnish uniforms, armed by the Finnish weapon and had an explosive. 8/25/1944 the group has left on the task. 26-28.08. The armored train again fired at the Soviet positions, but since next day bombardments have stopped. Any of scouts has not returned. Only after 9/5/1944 it was possible to establish, that the armored train has been blown up in area HARLU.

I ask to tell to me more in detail about destiny of this Finnish armored train.

In advance Thanks!

Best Regards!

Alex Y. (the Finn in Siberia).

[Juha Hujanen]

I wonder how many actual armoured trains Finland had in 44?.AFAIK there was 2 armoured trains prior 44.Armoured train 1 and 2.In November 42 these 2 trains were designed as 1.Raut.It.Ptri. and 2.Raut.It.Ptri (1st and 2nd Railroad.Anti-Aircraft Battery).

I belive that 1.Raut.It.Ptri operated in Karelian Isthumus in summer 44 and 2.Raut.It.Ptri was destroyed by its own crew in late June 44 in station of Aunus (Olonets?).That was because Soviet ambhious assault in Vitele had cut-off railroad lines and made retreat impossible.

Maybe there was an railroad artillery battery operating in Harlu?.However i've no info of destruction of such unit there.

Any thoughs gents?

Cheers/Juha

[JTV]

I wonder how many actual armoured trains Finland had in 44?.AFAIK there was 2 armoured trains prior 44.Armoured train 1 and 2.In November 42 these 2 trains were designed as 1.Raut.It.Ptri. and 2.Raut.It.Ptri (1st and 2nd Railroad.Anti-Aircraft Battery).

I belive that 1.Raut.It.Ptri operated in Karelian Isthumus in summer 44 and 2.Raut.It.Ptri was destroyed by its own crew in late June 44 in station of Aunus (Olonets?).That was because Soviet ambhious assault in Vitele had cut-off railroad lines and made retreat impossible.

Any thoughs gents?

Cheers/Juha

I have lately been writing history of Finnish armoured trains for my website (Part 2, which covers their story from end of Civil War in 1918 to 1940 is almost ready btw), so I can verify all the info above. During World War 2 Finnish Army had only two armoured trains and neither of them could have been in Harlu.

As mentined soon after Soviet landing to Vitele 23rd of June had cut the only railway connection the armoured train (Armoured Train 2) of 2. Raut.It.Ptri (2nd Railway Anti-aircraft Battery) was blown up its own crew. Before this weaponry of this train had been removed and was evacuated with trucks. Crew of this train was spread out to various anti-aircraft artillery units of VI Army Corps.

The armoured train (Armoured Train 1) of 1. Raut.It.Ptri (1st Railway Anti-aircraft Battery) was in Carelian Isthmus, where it was in train station of Viipuri / Viborg 15th of June 1944 when the ammunition train located in the same railway yard exploded during air raid and practically all its wagons were damaged in that explosion. 19th of June this train moved to train station of Nurmi from where it was transferred to train station of Simola 26th of June. 30th of June it moved to train station of Taavetti and 22nd of September to Kouvola. This armoured train remained in operational condition (two of the damaged wagons were replaced with new ones in September) until end of the war. Personnel of this train was demobilised 18th of November 1944 what is left of the train is nowadays in Parola Armour Museum.

Jarkko

[Harri]

"That's the way it is, boys". Nothing more to add except that in 1944 old armoured trains could not have been used it their original role because their armament had been changed to anti-aircraft weapons.

Alex Y. (the Finn in Siberia).

[Juha Tompuri]

Maybe there was an railroad artillery battery operating in Harlu?.

Any thoughs gents?

I think that's what Alex ment.
AFAIK 2.Railway Battery operated about that region about that time
The Battery was equipped with 4 152mm Canet cannons able to deliver ca. 50kg projectile up to 20km distance.
Something to the Soviets to worry more about than the real armored trains and their artillery.

However i've no info of destruction of such unit there.

Me neither.

Regards, Juha


Railway Battery in action at Maaselkä section January 1942

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/

[Harri]

2nd Railway Battery (2.Raut.Ptri) was operational all the time. Quote from my site:

In June 1944 battery was for a short while subordinated to Eastern Gulf of Finland Coastal Brigade (ISuom.RPr.) at Karelian Isthmus but was returned back to Lake Ladoga where it for example participated in firing landed Soviet troops at Tuulos since 26.6.1944. After the armistice on 4 September 1944 2.Raut.Ptri was moved at first to Käkisalmi, then to Savonlinna from where it was moved to Brödtorp in Hanko Peninsula.

Unfortunately my text has gaps in the operational history but my sources don't mention anything about losses. Anyway this particular battery operated on the area mentioned above like both Juha's and Jarkko told.

[Janne]

Harri, what ìs you source here? "Itsenäisen Suomen rannikkotykit 1918-1998" or the article(s?) in "Resiina"? (I'm not familiar with either, but these acame to mind; ýhe railway batteries seem to have "fallen between the cracks" when battle or unit histories have been written.)

What about the mysterious "3.Raut.Ptri" in Pentti Kopsa's index?


FWIW I'd agree that we must be talking about the 2.Raut.Ptri and that both the guns and the cars survived the war intact. Besides, the date is a little odd, because there wasn't really anything special happening that late in August according to Finnish historiography.

OTOH Harlu railway station had been bombed and strafed in early August and it's quite conceivable thet there could've been a damaged train of some kind lying there in Spetember - but can we get that to fit with any kind of armoured train?


So, the story certainly isn't exactly well-known in Finland and it isn't easy to match with any known events, either.

Besides, there are a few stories and mentions of suspiciously behaving - giving contradictory orders, spreading rumours, misdirecting traffic or just asking too many questions - or somehow not quite right looking soldiers, usually junior officers, who were believed to have been Finnish speaking Soviet soldiers wearing Finnish uniforms. In some cases there was also a strong suspicion of someone in the vicinity calling in artillery or aerial strikes.

I believe these sort of special operations have been confirmed in Soviet/Russian literature, but weren't they usually planned and carried out at a higher level than divisional, i.e. that they weren't "improvised" like in the story Alex described?

Has anyone read of cases where the "Spetsnaz agents" were actually caught or engaged in a firefight or killed? Of any cases of sabotage groups like in the story? (I cannot recall any, although I seem to remember that hidden radios and sometimes their operators were discovered.)


Janne

[Harri]

Harri, what ìs you source here? "Itsenäisen Suomen rannikkotykit 1918-1998" or the article(s?) in "Resiina"? (I'm not familiar with either, but these acame to mind; ýhe railway batteries seem to have "fallen between the cracks" when battle or unit histories have been written.)

I agree. It has been really hard to find information on them. My main sources are Ove Enqvist's "Coastal Guns in Finland 1918 -1998", Jyri Paulaharju's (with Sinerma and Koskimaa) "History of the Finnish Field Artillery, Vol. 2, 1939 - 1944" and Juho Tenhiälä's (editor) "Keltainen rykmentti kannaksella 1941 - 1944 - Muistojen kirja" [Yellow Regiment (= Coastal Artillery Regiment 2) in Karelian Isthmus 1941 - 1944 - Memorial Book] (Kirjayhtymä, 1988) as well as general military history books including "Finnish War 1941 - 1945, Vol. 10".

I have not seen the article(s) in resiina although I have heard of them.

What about the mysterious "3.Raut.Ptri" in Pentti Kopsa's index?

I don't know any other than the one equipped with three repaired captured 305 mm (12") super heavy "305/52 ORaut" railway guns. It was formed late in 1942 and stayed at Hanko peninsula during the whole war. Before that there was not such battery unless the unit was "reserved" (and trained) earlier for new guns. It is possible that the repairing of guns took longer than planned and unit (= men) existed earlier.

1.Raut.Ptri was equipped with 180mm "180/57 NRaut" railway guns captured both at Hanko and on Karelian isthmus. There were eventually five such guns but they suffered losses on Karelian Isthmus in June 1944.

Railway Battery (Raut.Ptri), later 2nd Railway Battery (2.Raut.Ptri) was equipped with the mentioned 152 mm "152/45 CRaut" Canet guns. Here is a quote from my site again:

In the summer 1941 Railway Battery (nicknamed "Iivari") had initially only two 152/45 CRaut Canet guns. Battery was located to Tohmajärvi - Värtsilä area where it received two more guns on 21.7. and on 31.7.1941. After that all four railway guns operated on railways lines Jänisjärvi - Suojärvi and Jänisjärvi - Uuksu supporting the attack of the Karelian Army (Kar.A). On 21.9.1941 battery was re-named as 2nd Railway Battery (2. Rautatiepatteri, 2.Raut.Ptri). Battery Chief was Capt. U. Karhunen.

According to certain sources there would have been two railway batteries (1st and 2nd) already in July 1941 each having two guns and they would have been attached together in September 1941 as 2nd Railway Battery.

FWIW I'd agree that we must be talking about the 2.Raut.Ptri and that both the guns and the cars survived the war intact. Besides, the date is a little odd, because there wasn't really anything special happening that late in August according to Finnish historiography.

I think battery had four guns at that stage. IIRC they all survived.

OTOH Harlu railway station had been bombed and strafed in early August and it's quite conceivable thet there could've been a damaged train of some kind lying there in Spetember - but can we get that to fit with any kind of armoured train?

If something happened it must have been an ordinary train or some decoy target (which wouldn't be quite unusual either).

So, the story certainly isn't exactly well-known in Finland and it isn't easy to match with any known events, either.
Besides, there are a few stories and mentions of suspiciously behaving - giving contradictory orders, spreading rumours, misdirecting traffic or just asking too many questions - or somehow not quite right looking soldiers, usually junior officers, who were believed to have been Finnish speaking Soviet soldiers wearing Finnish uniforms. In some cases there was also a strong suspicion of someone in the vicinity calling in artillery or aerial strikes.
I believe these sort of special operations have been confirmed in Soviet/Russian literature, but weren't they usually planned and carried out at a higher level than divisional, i.e. that they weren't "improvised" like in the story Alex described?

I think these are more "stories" than were actual missions (comparable to the cuckoo stories). There are although a few known cases which are believed to have been operations of Soviet special troops. Numerous Soviet soldiers in Finnish uniforms were caught during the war but I have never seen any studies on this issue.

Has anyone read of cases where the "Spetsnaz agents" were actually caught or engaged in a firefight or killed? Of any cases of sabotage groups like in the story? (I cannot recall any, although I seem to remember that hidden radios and sometimes their operators were discovered.)

I remember two cases when Soviet partisan/special troops have operated in Finland or on occupied areas.

IIRC in East Karelia close to Lake onega (I don't remember the place) Soviet partisans managed to burn a bridge of an narrow gauge "Upper River Svir Railway" [Ylä-Syvärin rautatie] which was used in supply transports of the 7th Division. This railway was built from the Murmansk railway close to the river Svir in 1942 - 1943.

The second case concerns the railway Germans built at Kuusamo. Soviets sent a special partisan/agent group to Finland to scout the railway and demolish some of its bridges. All members of this group (IIRC there were only a few men) who were in civilian clothes were caught before they had finished their operation.

[kari lumppio]

Hello!

I was at Sota-arkisto archive and looking for something else when I stumbled on papers which might be the answer for this mysterious "armour" train. This theory also supposes that the actions took place during July instead of August (Compare the "In the middle-end of August, 1944 when fights went already for Pitkyaranta" - the Pitkäranta battle took place AFAIK in June).

The "armour" train could actually have been a repairing train. Finnish railway unit 22. Korj.Juna (22. korjausjuna = repair train) was based at Uuksu 1.7.1944, at the same time as there was also the 2. Raut.Ptri (2nd Railway Battery). The 22. Korj.Juna was bombed twice at Harlu (!) railway station during 22nd July and was damaged so much that it was transferred away (to Onkamo). The repair train continued operate there, though.

I don't know how a repair train would look like, but I would think it was very different from a normal train. Quite likely it would have lifting cranes on rotating platform ( "gun turrets"?) for lifting the rails.

Additionally there is mention that during July 1944 22. Korj.Juna evacuated a transportable railway bridge (in one piece? - "levysilta") and a railway engine rotating table ("kääntölava"). These pieces would look into air as there was extra rails on the roof of the train. If I remember correctly another story from Soviet pilots at Olonetsh was that there was a Finnish armour train with rails on it's roof. The "explanation" found by them apparently was that another train could pass the armour train by travelling over it using the rails on roof!

I think this repair train would be a logical explanation for the two mysterious Soviet observations.


Cheers,
Kari

[Juha Hujanen]

Sounds quite plausible to me.

Thanks for "digging"

Cheers/Juha

[Harri]

The "armour" train could actually have been a repairing train. Finnish railway unit 22. Korj.Juna (22. korjausjuna = repair train) was based at Uuksu 1.7.1944, at the same time as there was also the 2. Raut.Ptri (2nd Railway Battery). The 22. Korj.Juna was bombed twice at Harlu (!) railway station during 22nd July and was damaged so much that it was transferred away (to Onkamo). The repair train continued operate there, though.

I don't know how a repair train would look like, but I would think it was very different from a normal train. Quite likely it would have lifting cranes on rotating platform ( "gun turrets"?) for lifting the rails.

Repairing Trains were movable railway repair units specialized for the quick repairing of bombed or damaged railways but also salvaging railway equipment like waggons and locomotives. They also worked with other more static repairing units. In many countries there were special Railway Engineers but in Finland there were basically normal professional "topparoikka"s (reinforced most likely with older reservists) equipped with cranes, rail equipment, possibly also small bridge equipment and waggons for transporting men, gravel, rails and other equipment.

Unfortunately I have never seen any photos of these war-time repairing trains, so I don't know their exact composition. There were repairing trains also during the peace time used for example after accidents to clear things out. I think basically their tasks were the same both during the peace and war-time.

My grandfather's younger brother, who was a professional "railway guardian" [ratavartija] (earlier all tracks were inspected visually twice a week by railway guardians until 1960's), worked in one of these as a foreman (Lance Corporal, later Corporal), although I don't remember for sure in which unit but IIRC it was 23. Korjausjuna. During the war he was located at Äänislinna (Petrozavodsk). He mentioned me once that they had lots of job to do because every time an ammo train came Soviet bombers attacked. Their intelligence seems to have been working well.

There was one Railway Repairing HQ (RKE), three Repairing Trains (21. - 23.Korj.Juna) and also nine Track Repairing Platoons (1. - 9.RKorj.J) and 12 Track Repairing Companies (1. - 12.RKorj.K) in addition to one Railway Depot Platoon (1.Raut.Var.J) for storing and delivering special equipment and tools. These were basically units of the Finnish State Railways (VR).

Additionally there is mention that during July 1944 22. Korj.Juna evacuated a transportable railway bridge (in one piece? - "levysilta") and a railway engine rotating table ("kääntölava"). These pieces would look into air as there was extra rails on the roof of the train. If I remember correctly another story from Soviet pilots at Olonetsh was that there was a Finnish armour train with rails on it's roof. The "explanation" found by them apparently was that another train could pass the armour train by travelling over it using the rails on roof!

I think this repair train would be a logical explanation for the two mysterious Soviet observations.

That sounds a reasonable explanation.

"Levysilta" [plate bridge] is a light one piece bridge type with two supporting "stiffened plates" below or on the sides at the same level to the rails connected together with a stiff grid construction. That kind of construction was earlier common in small bridges, but while that kind of "open floor construction" it is not so well suitable for modern "floating tracks in a macadam bed" system, it is nowadays usually used in larger bridges only.

"Kääntöpöytä" [turning table] or "kääntölava" [turning platform] was earlier very important device for turning steam locomotives. It was very important that locomotives were stressed equally on both "sides" to avoid unnecessary wearing (the planning of this "veturikierto" [locomotive cycle] as it was called was earlier close to "artistic work"). Also some steam locomotives with a tender could travel only "nose ahead" at their full speed. During the war there was although universal speed limit for trains (because of the higher risk of track damages and also because light signals and lighting could not be used). On areas were partisans could operate trains also had "security waggons" (loaded with sand sacks) ahead of the locomotive to trigger possible rail mines.

[Tero T]

Terve! Pojat!
I dug up some pics I had on armoured trains. I suspect they have been seen before. Tero T

[Tero T]

More like one armoured train car not whole train. Tero T

[Tero T]

and another one. Tero T

[Tero T]

Yup! wife needs me to do the dishes. Last pic. Tero T