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Juha Hujanen wrote:I wonder how many actual armoured trains Finland had in 44?.AFAIK there was 2 armoured trains prior 44.Armoured train 1 and 2.In November 42 these 2 trains were designed as 1.Raut.It.Ptri. and 2.Raut.It.Ptri (1st and 2nd Railroad.Anti-Aircraft Battery).
I belive that 1.Raut.It.Ptri operated in Karelian Isthumus in summer 44 and 2.Raut.It.Ptri was destroyed by its own crew in late June 44 in station of Aunus (Olonets?).That was because Soviet ambhious assault in Vitele had cut-off railroad lines and made retreat impossible.
Any thoughs gents?
Alex Yeliseenko wrote:Alex Y. (the Finn in Siberia).
I think that's what Alex ment.Juha Hujanen wrote:Maybe there was an railroad artillery battery operating in Harlu?.
Any thoughs gents?
Me neither.#1 wrote:However i've no info of destruction of such unit there.
In June 1944 battery was for a short while subordinated to Eastern Gulf of Finland Coastal Brigade (ISuom.RPr.) at Karelian Isthmus but was returned back to Lake Ladoga where it for example participated in firing landed Soviet troops at Tuulos since 26.6.1944. After the armistice on 4 September 1944 2.Raut.Ptri was moved at first to Käkisalmi, then to Savonlinna from where it was moved to Brödtorp in Hanko Peninsula.
Janne wrote:Harri, what ìs you source here? "Itsenäisen Suomen rannikkotykit 1918-1998" or the article(s?) in "Resiina"? (I'm not familiar with either, but these acame to mind; ýhe railway batteries seem to have "fallen between the cracks" when battle or unit histories have been written.)
Janne wrote:What about the mysterious "3.Raut.Ptri" in Pentti Kopsa's index?
In the summer 1941 Railway Battery (nicknamed "Iivari") had initially only two 152/45 CRaut Canet guns. Battery was located to Tohmajärvi - Värtsilä area where it received two more guns on 21.7. and on 31.7.1941. After that all four railway guns operated on railways lines Jänisjärvi - Suojärvi and Jänisjärvi - Uuksu supporting the attack of the Karelian Army (Kar.A). On 21.9.1941 battery was re-named as 2nd Railway Battery (2. Rautatiepatteri, 2.Raut.Ptri). Battery Chief was Capt. U. Karhunen.
According to certain sources there would have been two railway batteries (1st and 2nd) already in July 1941 each having two guns and they would have been attached together in September 1941 as 2nd Railway Battery.
Janne wrote:FWIW I'd agree that we must be talking about the 2.Raut.Ptri and that both the guns and the cars survived the war intact. Besides, the date is a little odd, because there wasn't really anything special happening that late in August according to Finnish historiography.
Janne wrote:OTOH Harlu railway station had been bombed and strafed in early August and it's quite conceivable thet there could've been a damaged train of some kind lying there in Spetember - but can we get that to fit with any kind of armoured train?
Janne wrote:So, the story certainly isn't exactly well-known in Finland and it isn't easy to match with any known events, either.
Besides, there are a few stories and mentions of suspiciously behaving - giving contradictory orders, spreading rumours, misdirecting traffic or just asking too many questions - or somehow not quite right looking soldiers, usually junior officers, who were believed to have been Finnish speaking Soviet soldiers wearing Finnish uniforms. In some cases there was also a strong suspicion of someone in the vicinity calling in artillery or aerial strikes.
I believe these sort of special operations have been confirmed in Soviet/Russian literature, but weren't they usually planned and carried out at a higher level than divisional, i.e. that they weren't "improvised" like in the story Alex described?
Janne wrote:Has anyone read of cases where the "Spetsnaz agents" were actually caught or engaged in a firefight or killed? Of any cases of sabotage groups like in the story? (I cannot recall any, although I seem to remember that hidden radios and sometimes their operators were discovered.)
kari lumppio wrote:The "armour" train could actually have been a repairing train. Finnish railway unit 22. Korj.Juna (22. korjausjuna = repair train) was based at Uuksu 1.7.1944, at the same time as there was also the 2. Raut.Ptri (2nd Railway Battery). The 22. Korj.Juna was bombed twice at Harlu (!) railway station during 22nd July and was damaged so much that it was transferred away (to Onkamo). The repair train continued operate there, though.
I don't know how a repair train would look like, but I would think it was very different from a normal train. Quite likely it would have lifting cranes on rotating platform ( "gun turrets"?) for lifting the rails.
kari lumppio wrote:Additionally there is mention that during July 1944 22. Korj.Juna evacuated a transportable railway bridge (in one piece? - "levysilta") and a railway engine rotating table ("kääntölava"). These pieces would look into air as there was extra rails on the roof of the train. If I remember correctly another story from Soviet pilots at Olonetsh was that there was a Finnish armour train with rails on it's roof. The "explanation" found by them apparently was that another train could pass the armour train by travelling over it using the rails on roof!
I think this repair train would be a logical explanation for the two mysterious Soviet observations.
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