Destruction of an August armored train (1944)

[JTV]

Terve! Pojat!
I dug up some pics I had on armoured trains. I suspect they have been seen before. Tero T

Absolutely stunning. I have not seen these photos before and I have read just about everything ever written about Finnish armoured trains. Assuming these photos are all from same source they seem to be Continuation War era photos of Armoured Train 2. The camo painted artillery wagon with two gun turrets shown in most photos was captured from Soviet armoured train in Käppäselkä October of 1941. The thing with tubing on top of it is armoured locomotive G-10/Sk-3 number 336 and its existance in the train suggests that these photo were taken early 1942 (locomotives of the two armoured trains were transposed in April of 1942).

If these are original photos, would be there a possibility that I could use some of them in my website? I am about to start writing the next part of Finnish armoured trains history to my website. The pages I have written about them this far:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TRAINS0.htm

Jarkko

[Harri]

Absolutely stunning. I have not seen these photos before...

Same here. Very good photos indeed!

Assuming these photos are all from same source they seem to be Continuation War era photos of Armoured Train 2. The camo painted artillery wagon with two gun turrets shown in most photos was captured from Soviet armoured train in Käppäselkä October of 1941. The thing with tubing on top of it is armoured locomotive G-10/Sk-3 number 336 and its existance in the train suggests that these photo were taken early 1942 (locomotives of the two armoured trains were transposed in April of 1942).

I think the year 1941 might be more suitable because soldiers wear summer tunics (if I see correctly). If these photo had been taken in spring (April) 1942 I think soldiers would still wear winter tunics and fur hats.

Somehow the painting looks very similar to the Finnish three tone camouflage painting introduced to Finnish tanks in spring 1943 (but for other items earlier) but I'm not expert in this issue. It would be interesting to find out on what station this armoured train is parked? Is this Armoured Train 1 or 2 then?

If these are original photos, would be there a possibility that I could use some of them in my website?

Me too (only one excellent photo would be needed)!
http:/www.geocities.com/finnmilpge

I'm working with the "Finnish Railways during the WW II" page which will cover Winter, Continuation and Lapland Wars. This page will handle Finnish railway officers, railway traffic during the war and railway repair, signals and AA units as well as armoured trains. Jarkko's pages are of course much wider and one of my primary source concerning to armoured trains.

Like Jarkko said there is only little information available on this issue but I'm planning a trip to Finnish Railway Museum (at Hyvinkää) in the future which would be useful. I also try to contact Museum Director Mr. Matti Bergström who is a real "railway guru" in Finland.

[JTV]

Somehow the painting looks very similar to the Finnish three tone camouflage painting introduced to Finnish tanks in spring 1943 (but for other items earlier) but I'm not expert in this issue. It would be interesting to find out on what station this armoured train is parked? Is this Armoured Train 1 or 2 then?

The camo pattern quite similar indeed, but at least locomotive is not camo-painted in those photos. So the camo pattern in that captured artillery wagon could be old Soviet paint-job?

The artillery wagon (modified wagon from Russian heavy armoured train model 1915, now armed with 40-mm Bofors) in 3rd photo belongs to Armour Train 2 for certain. Only two of these wagons existed in Finnish use during World War 2 and they can be indentified from shape of obvervation turret on roof of the wagon. Otherwise it is very difficult to seperate the two trains from each other (all other wagons were almost indentical).

There is basically almost no information about the use of captured wagons. The armoured train that I/JR 45 captured in 28th October of 1941 had two of these artillery wagons. Anyway these two wagons seems to be Soviet PL-35, which makes the type of captured train BP-35. The guns used in these wagons (76 mm field gun model 1902/30 aka Finnish 76 K/02-30) must have been pretty useless to Finnish armoured trains because the trains were mainly used as mobile anti-aircraft units, and these guns were totally useless to that kind of use (not even enough elevation).

Jarkko

[Harri]

Wasn't there also an AA version, namely "Obuhov Zenit" which in Finland was called "76 ItK/02-34"?

[JTV]

Wasn't there also an AA version, namely "Obuhov Zenit" which in Finland was called "76 ItK/02-34"?

You seem to have somehow happily mixed three or four different guns. The one that comes closest to that name is 76 ItK/02/34, which was basically 75-mm Canet coastal/naval gun barrel modified to 76.2-mm calibre and placed on top of old "sea-howitzer" mount. One or two of these were actually used in Finnish armoured trains (in open turrets like 40-mm Bofors) during Continuation War - even if they must have been little use against aircraft because the trains lacked both large range-finders and mechnical fire control computers (keskuslaskin). Besides one heavy aa-gun doesn't exacly make a heavy anti-aircraft battery firepower-wise.

76 K/20-30 used in these captured artillery wagons was old 76.2-mm field gun model 1902 modified in 1930's. There was no Obuhov Zenit. The term "zenit" means translates simply as "anti-aircraft". During World War 1 the Russians developed anti-aircraft gun based to 76 mm field gun model 1902 and the resulting gun was known as 76 ItK/14 Putilov. In addition around World War 1 they also used 75-mm Canet coastal/naval guns equipped with fixed gun mounts suitable for anti-aircraft use - these were commonly called "Meller-Zenit" or "Zenit-Meller" (Captain Meller being the designer of the particular mount).

76 ItK/02/34 anti-aircraft-gun:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AA_GUNS3.htm#76ItK0234

76 K/02-30 field gun:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY3.htm#76K0230

76 ItK/14 Putilov:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AA_GUNS3.htm#76ItK14

75 mm Meller-Zenit:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AA_GUNS3.htm#75ItKZenit


Jarkko

[Tero T]

As far as I am concerned these are origninal. The paper these were developed on is Agfa Zopax . I am not a WWII print paper specialist. Feel free to use them. I assume the purpose of the forum is to share . As long as credit is given . Regards Tero T (Toronto)

[Harri]

Wasn't there also an AA version, namely "Obuhov Zenit" which in Finland was called "76 ItK/02-34"?

You seem to have somehow happily mixed three or four different guns.

Not "somehow happily". Name Obuhov Zenit was IIRC taken from the Museum leaflet of AA Museum (I have now the new book of War Museum). This explains my rhetorical question:

The one that comes closest to that name is 76 ItK/02/34, which was basically 75-mm Canet coastal/naval gun barrel modified to 76.2-mm calibre and placed on top of old "sea-howitzer" mount. One or two of these were actually used in Finnish armoured trains (in open turrets like 40-mm Bofors) during Continuation War - even if they must have been little use against aircraft because the trains lacked both large range-finders and mechnical fire control computers (keskuslaskin). Besides one heavy aa-gun doesn't exacly make a heavy anti-aircraft battery firepower-wise.

Only the question was a bit stupidly created. You are also right with the correct abbreviation (which will be correct together with other mistakes and inaccuracies after my site update).

The actual reason why also these obsolete heavy AA guns were used was that anytime pilots detected heavy firing (even if inaccurate) they started avoiding that kind of areas and flew higher. That made their operating more inaccurate and cautious. In other words heavy AA guns had very strong "fear effect" on pilots. They could never be for sure where there more than one gun and what kind of unit was firing at them. Against ground-attack planes 40 mm Bofors was without doubt much more effective.

Heavy AA guns were also very effective in direct firing which may have been one of the purposes of these guns in an armoured train (if they had suitable ammunition?).

[Harri]

As far as I am concerned these are origninal. The paper these were developed on is Agfa Zopax . I am not a WWII print paper specialist. Feel free to use them. I assume the purpose of the forum is to share . As long as credit is given.

Absolutely. I'll send private message to you during this week so we can agree with the "details". Thanks a lot!

[Tero T]

I am ploughing through over 5 hundred large format negatives and a couple of armoured trains popped up. More to follow. Also a nice pic of a knocked out T-26 with some turret markings. Tero T

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi Tero,

Thanks for sharing the photos.
They look very sharp - advantages of the large negative format.
The tank insignia "O inside a square"(?) resembles quite much the Soviet flamethrower (chemical?) tank unit markings I've seen:
O = Огнемётные = flamethrower (?)

http://www.bronetehnika.narod.ru/ot26/ot26_2.html


Regards, Juha

[JTV]

I am ploughing through over 5 hundred large format negatives and a couple of armoured trains popped up. More to follow. Also a nice pic of a knocked out T-26 with some turret markings. Tero T

Thanks, excellent photos. The captured armoured train in those photos is obviously the same, which is in this photo in my website: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/Kappaselka.jpg

The texts on those two new photos also tell that that the photos were taken near Ala-Uunitsa (translates as "lower-Uunitsa") in 1941.

Location of Uunitsa railway station is marked to this map:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/CWRW04.jpg

These new photos are especially interesting from one reason. This far I have heard that the captured Soviet artillery wagon that is in Parola museum is from the train captured in Käppäselkä, but at least the (machinegun?) wagon shown in those photos looks quite different. Which raises the suspicion if the particular wagon in Parola is really from this particular train?

The captured Soviet artillery wagon in Parola: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/Parola04.jpg

Yet another matter, that I have to reconsider and possibly re-write for my website for the next update. Any chance you could allow me to use one of those two photos (the one which shows the wagon so well) in the website.

Jarkko

[Tero T]

Good Day!
I am glad to be of help for your website. Yes of course you can use these pics. I will see what others exist when I get through these negatives. Regards Tero T

[Harri]

Well, it seems my "during this week" has stayed a bit longer period...

Anyway nice photos again. The numbering of the later photos suggests that these clearly belong to some "commercial" photo sets. Many Finnish soldiers have these numbered photos.

[Swing]

Does anybody knows about activity of the 1st railway battery (1.Raut.Ptri) in July of 1944? There is some information in battery's Journal of hostilities - sotapäiväkirja (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3293625, p.p. 34-36), but handwriting is very difficult to understanding for me. Thanks in advance

[Vaeltaja]

I don't know if i'm the only one but for me most of that online war diary appears to be more or less corrupted. pages 34-38.