Finnish armour color schemes

[Sotka]

Hi!

Few questions:

1. When the three colorored camo pattern was issued?

2. Was it applied to all armour, or was part left in 'original color' ie. "Russian Green"?

I bought a model of finnish modified T-26 , and I am unsure were them (or at least part of them) painted in three colored camo? The info on kit says it presents modified T-26 (with bofors gun and handrails on tower) in 1945.

[JTV]

1. When the three colorored camo pattern was issued?

Order for painting tanks with three tone camo was issued in April of 1943. According order when the winter camo (painted for winter 1942 - 1943) was removed, tanks were to be painted with three tone camo.

2. Was it applied to all armour, or was part left in 'original color' ie. "Russian Green"?

I would say that the whole tank was repainted with three tone camo. Apparently some repaired captured Soviet tanks had been repainted with Finnish field gray already during and after Winter War, so all captured tanks were not necessarily "Russian green" before April of 1943. Also, it is possible that those T-26 tanks that served as training vehicles in the home front were not painted with three-tone camo in spring of 1943.

I bought a model of finnish modified T-26 , and I am unsure were them (or at least part of them) painted in three colored camo? The info on kit says it presents modified T-26 (with bofors gun and handrails on tower) in 1945.

I am sorry to say, that sounds absolutely horrible. Either you got it wrong, or the company making the model has no idea what kind of tanks Finnish Army actually used. Finnish military didn't use T-26 tanks equipped with Bofors gun and what you refer as "hand rail" could be a Soviet radio antenna - which Finnish Army routinely removed and replaced with a whip antenna.

Only tank in which Finnish Army used 37-mm Bofors tank gun (37 Psv.K/36) was Winter War era Vickers 6-ton tank, which was British made tank, to which Soviet T-26 was based:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS2.htm
After Finnish - Soviet Winter War (November 1939 - March 1940) these tanks were modified as T-26E, which were equipped with Soviet 45-mm tank guns. Captured Soviet T-26B (m 1933-1937) and T-26C (m 1938 - 1939) tanks were equipped with their original Soviet 45-mm tank guns.

Jarkko

[Sotka]

Thank you JTV!

From model kit: "As the Finnish used Bofors guns, the captive T-26 had to be re-armed accordingly.During modifications, many tanks were fitted with hand rails to turrets, to faciliate climbing on them in snow and icy conditions."

This all is false? Thank you for correcting.


Here is a pic of the kit: http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/mira ... -4433.html

Manufacturer is polish Mirage Hobby


Regards, Tuomo

[JTV]

Thank you JTV!

From model kit: "As the Finnish used Bofors guns, the captive T-26 had to be re-armed accordingly.During modifications, many tanks were fitted with hand rails to turrets, to faciliate climbing on them in snow and icy conditions."

This all is false? Thank you for correcting.
Here is a pic of the kit: http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/mira ... -4433.html

I'm afraid it's false info and if the drawing in the box is accurate the model kit isn't. As mentioned Bofors guns were never used in captured T-26 tanks. The "hand rail" is not a Soviet frame antenna, but I don't remember seeing such hand rail in any Finnish T-26 tanks either. According drawing the tank seems to be T-26C (as the Finnish Army called it, T-26 m 1938-1939 for the Soviets). The gun attachment seems to be the correct Soviet one, but the main gun doesn't look like 37-mm Bofors or 45-mm Soviet tank gun - the gun barrel doesn't look right and the recoil mechanism should be visible below barrel. The camo pattern in the drawing is interesting, but not necessarily historically incorrect - it seems to be three tone camo with light brown replaced with white. My understanding is that the usual winter camo was painting over the whole tank white (with whitewash-mix), but there may have been variations.

Link to photo of T-26C tank painted with winter camo in Panssarimuseo:
http://www.andreaslarka.net/ps164007/2006_16400702.jpg

Tank guns page in my website:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANK_GUNS.htm

Jarkko

[Sotka]

Thank You, Jarkko!

The white color on camo confused mee too. I use light grey instead.

And one incorrect piece more: swastikas in the kit are blue and white, instead of black and white. Was any tank painted with blue/white markings?

Regards, Tuomo

[Sotka]

Oh, and JTV: What you think about this? Right colors? I doubt it!

Never seen such armour in wartime photos.

http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/mili ... 11779.html

/Tuomo

[JTV]

And one incorrect piece more: swastikas in the kit are blue and white, instead of black and white. Was any tank painted with blue/white markings?

The correct color for national insignia used in tanks at that time was black swastika with white highlights. The order for using this insignia was issued 21st of June 1941. It was replaced by blue-white cockade (which is still in use) in 1st of August 1945. The pre 21st of June 1941 de facto national marking was blue-white stripe in turret - which was introduced during Winter War. The blue swastika was unofficial and rare - and seems to have been unofficially used in some armoured vehicles around 1940 - 1941 - possibly painted on field to captured armoured vehicles taken immediately to own use.

Jarkko

[Scharf]

Jarkko,

You should check my picture in "members who colour photos"-section. Question is there, any info would be great.


Scharf

[Sotka]

And one incorrect piece more: swastikas in the kit are blue and white, instead of black and white. Was any tank painted with blue/white markings?

The correct color for national insignia used in tanks at that time was black swastika with white highlights. The order for using this insignia was issued 21st of June 1941. It was replaced by blue-white cockade (which is still in use) in 1st of August 1945. The pre 21st of June 1941 de facto national marking was blue-white stripe in turret - which was introduced during Winter War. The blue swastika was unofficial and rare - and seems to have been unofficially used in some armoured vehicles around 1940 - 1941 - possibly painted on field to captured armoured vehicles taken immediately to own use.

Jarkko

Thank you Jarkko for all the info. Seems that model kit manufacturer have much to learn.

/Tuomo

[JTV]

Oh, and JTV: What you think about this? Right colors? I doubt it!
Never seen such armour in wartime photos.
http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/mili ... 11779.html

IMO colours are relatively close to real ones, but only if they are really faded in that drawing.

Stu 40G camo pattern drawings in andreaslarka.net:
http://www.andreaslarka.net/ps531008/ps531008.html
This page in the same website shows Landsverk Anti II freshly painted with correct three tone camo:
http://www.andreaslarka.net/r903/r903.html

Soviet armoured trucks were rare in Finnish use, but I apparently some were captured in 1941 and saw Finnish use:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=126052

However, towed version of 2,0-cm Flakvierling (the 4-barrel version) shown in the drawing was never in Finnish use. The single-barrel 2,0 cm Flak 38 (20 ItK/38 for Finnish Army) was pretty common in Finnish use during Continuation War. Only flakvierlings that see brief Finnish use (in summer - autumn 1944) were static version attached to artillery ferries received from the Germans at that time. When Continuation War ended the ferries and their armament was given to the Soviets.

Jarkko

[JTV]

Jarkko,
You should check my picture in "members who colour photos"-section. Question is there, any info would be great.

I just checked it, very good work. Just my 2 cents worth, only thing that IMO might be bit off, would the green camo color in the tank - it looks like it might be bit too bright. Green should fade pretty close to that, but somewhat it looks bit too "flashy" to my eyes.

Jarkko

[Panssari Salama]

IMO colours are relatively close to real ones, but only if they are really faded in that drawing.

Stu 40G camo pattern drawings in andreaslarka.net:
http://www.andreaslarka.net/ps531008/ps531008.html
This page in the same website shows Landsverk Anti II freshly painted with correct three tone camo:
http://www.andreaslarka.net/r903/r903.html

I was just wondering about the colour schemes and rest assured, they were already discussed here

Does anyone know what is the correct colour scheme? I am especially interested about Stu-40s.

At Andreas Lärka's site, The PS531-8 comes with a detailed instructions for a dark green - dark brown - light brown colours. However, almost all other Stu's, including PS531-19 that is in the museum, are painted with a dark green - dark brown - greyish blue -colour.

Additionally, the Lansdverk JTV refers to is painted with the one including the grey colour?

So, which one is it ??? Or were both three-tone-camos used ???

EDIT: I've been wondering about the correct schema for some time, but this brought the question back to my mind. WOW! These guys are incredibly talented !!! http://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/malli_7734/

[Harri]

Blue and white swastika markings (with long arm ends I think) were used in 1941 only by the unofficial Armoured Detachment of 1st Division. Actually there were two different detachments: the early heavy one with at least two captured T-28 tanks later handed over to Heavy Armoured Company and a light detachment led by 2Lt. Lauri Törni with two T-26 tanks and at least one armoured car. I don't remember if these both used blue colour instead of black but I think that was the case.

"Official" armoured units used always black and white swastika markings.

[Mangrove]

The three tone camo possibly on one of the Armoured Division's cars in October 1942. From "Värivälähdyksiä Äänisen rannoilta" film.

[JTV]

Blue and white swastika markings (with long arm ends I think) were used in 1941 only by the unofficial Armoured Detachment of 1st Division. Actually there were two different detachments: the early heavy one with at least two captured T-28 tanks later handed over to Heavy Armoured Company and a light detachment led by 2Lt. Lauri Törni with two T-26 tanks and at least one armoured car. I don't remember if these both used blue colour instead of black but I think that was the case.

While the information about markings is correct, may I ask your source for the information concerning armoured vehicles in use of Armoured Detachment (Panssariosasto) of 1st Division?

I am asking because I recently read book "Kärkenä Äänislinnaan. Kevyt Osasto 8:n historia" ("As a tip to Äänislinna. History of Light Detachment 8") by Jarmo Suomala and the information in it does not exactly fit to what you wrote above. According this book Armoured Detachment had two platoons - Tank Platoon (lead by Törni) and Armoured Car Platoon. Apparently Tank Platoon started with two captured T-26C (T-26 m 1938) tanks captured in August of 1941 and received one captured T-28 tank presumably in late August. October of 1941 Armoured Detachment traded this T-28 with Tank Battalion (Panssaripataljoona) receiving two captured BT-5 tanks in exchange. Early November of 1941 all four tanks of Armoured Detachment were already in such a poor shape that they required complete overhaul (BT-5 tanks had to be towed off, T-26C tanks were apparently in slightly better shape) its Tank Platoon was disbanded and all four tanks handed over. The Armoured Car Platoon had three heavy captured Soviet armoured cars (BA-10 and possibly BA-6).

Jarkko