A (odd) question about an event at the end of Winter War

[Panssari Salama]

Please bear with me...

I was surfing the net in search for Panzerblitz board game related material. I bumped into a very interesting file containing situation cards for Finnish units, from an article called "Panssari Salama" by an individual called Michael Benninghof.

Link: http://www.imaginative-strategist.layfi ... Salama.pdf

It turned out to be an interesting read, although the author did not get nearly all his facts straight... Kudos for transfering Finno-Soviet battles to a popular game format, though!

The thing that got my attention however was the alleged systematic shelling of Finnish troops marching from the front, after the cease fire had started. The situation is explained at page 2 of the pdf file, in the last chapter of that page.


A cease-fire was arranged to take effect on March 14, 1940, at noon. Assuming that the war had ended, many Finnish units left their posiotions that morning. at 11:45 a.m., with Finnish soldiers packed on the roads preparing to demobilize and return home, the Russian artillery battieries opened fire with an intense fifteen minute rolling barrage which killed hundreds. The intense hatred resulting from this barbaric and inexcusable (even by Jack Radey) act was primarily responsible for Finnish willingless to participate in the Barbarossa offensive.

:roll:

I have never heard of anything even closely resembling the situation discussed above? Any ideas what this is about?

A true but censored massacre of Finnish soldiers? Old Finnish propaganda? Imagination of Michael Benninghof running wild?
This is a sincere question, believe it or not. Any information shedding more light into this appreciated!

PS Who is Jack Radey?

[Slon-76]

A cease-fire was arranged to take effect on March 14, 1940, at noon.

March 13...

Assuming that the war had ended, many Finnish units left their posiotions that morning. at 11:45 a.m., with Finnish soldiers packed on the roads preparing to demobilize and return home, the Russian artillery battieries opened fire with an intense fifteen minute rolling barrage which killed hundreds. The intense hatred resulting from this barbaric and inexcusable (even by Jack Radey) act was primarily responsible for Finnish willingless to participate in the Barbarossa offensive.

90 % that are nonsense. The Soviet artillery really shot till the midday. It so. But it is incredible, that the Finnish infantry began to abandon the positions BEFORE an armistice.

[Panssari Salama]

A cease-fire was arranged to take effect on March 14, 1940, at noon.

March 13...

Assuming that the war had ended, many Finnish units left their posiotions that morning. at 11:45 a.m., with Finnish soldiers packed on the roads preparing to demobilize and return home, the Russian artillery battieries opened fire with an intense fifteen minute rolling barrage which killed hundreds. The intense hatred resulting from this barbaric and inexcusable (even by Jack Radey) act was primarily responsible for Finnish willingless to participate in the Barbarossa offensive.

90 % that are nonsense. The Soviet artillery really shot till the midday. It so. But it is incredible, that the Finnish infantry began to abandon the positions BEFORE an armistice.

Thank you Slon-76.

Yes, March 13 is the correct date, I missed that one

The article is a game article, so it is propably written by a so-called amateur historian. In the article he also mentions the heroic defense of Viipuri 1944 "to last man", while we know that the battle of Viipuri did not happen quite like that.

I doubt any troops left their positions before armistice, as you mention as well.

Just to check things out I looked at the Wiki entries for end of Winter War. The English edition does not mention anything similar.

However the Finnish edition, refering to Trotter, William R.: Frozen hell - The Russo-Finnish winter war of 1939-1940, does mention that "hundreds" of Finnish soldiers died or wounded because of sudden shelling on March 13.

Having said that, I am surprised:

I assume the game article is written sometimes in late 1970s or early 1980s. Until now I was not aware of the scale of such casualties.

Are there any other sources to describe Finnish losses on March 13 due to artillery fire?

edit: typos

[John Hilly]

Terve!
In fact, the Red Army seized fire one hour later, at 11.00 Moscow time, the Finns an hour earlier. Yes, there were casualities but not a lot. Naturally they all were in vain. And Finnish forces didn't leave their positions. That was conducted afterwards, due to the piece treaty (no casualties).
One explation for this mix-up could be that after the Continution War 4.-5. 9. 1944 there was 24 hours imbalance due to error in the Finnish minister's radio speech considering breaking relationships with the Nazi Germany.
So... In the Winter War it was a question of different time-zones, not a repay, at least I hope so.
Viipuri held its positions- not envadid - till the end of the Winter War. In 1944 was it a different thing.
With best
Juha

[Slon-76]

If to trust the data here from here:
http://kronos.narc.fi/menehtyneet/

On March, 13 the Finnish army on all front has lost 471 persons. Taking into account proceeding fights, especially storm Viipuri, it is rather usual losses, even below than on the average for March (7424 persons).
Try to look magazines of operations of the Finnish units for March, 13, to you because of a language problem to make it easier than me.

[Panssari Salama]

Thanks Juha and Slon-76, again.

It then seems that the event described in the article is not based on any true event.

Maybe the shelling that lasted until cease-fire, but did not result to dramatic losses, was behind the somewhat strange description.

Edit: Apparently the author of Frozen Hell has read this Panzerblitz gaming article as well LOL

(And Jack Radey apparently was an owner of a game company )

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi,

The whole thing might originate from Wikipedia/Trotter:

Taistelutoiminta rintamilla päättyi seuraavana päivänä asteittain klo 11 alkaen. Kello 10:45 neuvostojoukkojen tykistö ja kranaatinheittimistö avasivat yllättäen tulen suomalaisten asemiin. Keskityksillä ei ollut mitään suoraa sotilaallista päämäärää, ja ne onkin tulkittu puhtaaksi kostotoimeksi. Tulituksen johdosta satoja suomalaisia kuoli tai haavoittui.

...1045 hours (Finnish time) the Soviet artillery and mortar units suddenly opened fire to the Finnish positions. The concentrations had no direct military goals and they are thought to to have been pure acts of revenge. Because of the shelling hundreds of Finns died or wounded
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisota

If to trust the data here from here:
http://kronos.narc.fi/menehtyneet/

On March, 13 the Finnish army on all front has lost 471 persons. Taking into account proceeding fights, especially storm Viipuri, it is rather usual losses, even below than on the average for March (7424 persons).
Try to look magazines of operations of the Finnish units for March, 13, to you because of a language problem to make it easier than me.

it is rather usual losses, even below than on the average

For (less)half a day number (and to remember that the peace had been signed the day before) it is well above the average.

If to trust the data here from here

I do not have doubts about the info from that source.



Regards, Juha

[Slon-76]

Hi,
The whole thing might originate from Wikipedia/Trotter:

I do not think, that Wiikipedia is very authoritative source.

For (less)half a day number (and to remember that the peace had been signed the day before) it is well above the average.

Yes, perhaps you are right... On March, 11 - 686 person, on March, 12 - 683 persons, on March, 13 (half of day) - 471 person.
Though I all the same doubt, that the majority of victims on March, 13 - victims of artillery fire last 15 minutes of war. If I have correctly understood, the question was about it.

If to trust the data here from here

I do not have doubts about the info from that source.

I in general too. Therefore also I use these data.

Simply it too is not ideal, such opinions expressed also:
The database contains errors in the documents, errors made when the data was entered into the (pre-computerized) original list, and errors made when that list was entered into the computerized database.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=158749

I know cases when the Soviet soldiers after fight found a body of the killed Finnish soldier, but in this database of such case was not present.
For example. On December, 11 in area Hullkoniemi after fight (attack Er. K Hannula) the corpse of Finnish "officer" has been found out. At him the map and personal papers on surname Heikkinen have been found. I have not found him in base.
However, I think the general picture such episodes do not spoil.

Regards

P.S. I at all do not justify military actions 13.03.40. It looks really rather silly and brutal act. However, to speak about motives of these actions I too it is not ready, as I do not know their true reasons.

[Panssari Salama]

Hi,

The whole thing might originate from Wikipedia/Trotter:

Taistelutoiminta rintamilla päättyi seuraavana päivänä asteittain klo 11 alkaen. Kello 10:45 neuvostojoukkojen tykistö ja kranaatinheittimistö avasivat yllättäen tulen suomalaisten asemiin. Keskityksillä ei ollut mitään suoraa sotilaallista päämäärää, ja ne onkin tulkittu puhtaaksi kostotoimeksi. Tulituksen johdosta satoja suomalaisia kuoli tai haavoittui.

...1045 hours (Finnish time) the Soviet artillery and mortar units suddenly opened fire to the Finnish positions. The concentrations had no direct military goals and they are thought to to have been pure acts of revenge. Because of the shelling hundreds of Finns died or wounded
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisota

Juha, the article I read has to do with a very popular 1970s card board game called Panzerblitz (PB) by Avalon Hill game company. Although the article does not have any dates I assume it is written sometimes in late 1970s. Therefore the source can not be Wiki or Trotter's book.

I was aware of some shelling after cease-fire but did not consider that any more than other similar cases from history, let us say from 1809 war when Russians were following their time zones as well for local cease-fires.

The PB article mentions a deliberate shelling of withdrawing forces, something I have not heard at all. When there is smoke there might be fire, I thought, and posted my question.

My second question then was to ask for other sources for such high casualty rates as Wiki had the quote you refer to. The footnote refers indeed to Trotter's book Frozen hell.

Then again, the book refers to "dead and wounded", which indeed might be the case. If we take the 471 March 13 casualties at face value, and assume let us say 1/5 was caused by shelling, that would mean ca 100 fatal casualties for this act. For each soldier who died, there might be three of four wounded soldiers. Then we would be indeed talking about "hundreds" of casualties.

I am wondering if there would be any information available about March 13 shellings? And maybe there were a small unit somewhere who was already pulling out or at least had got out of trenches when the shelling started.

Again, the article was written by an amateur historian interested in war gaming. But I am wondering where he got the idea to this story. Based from his name I guess he is either a German or an American of German ancestors so I do not believe he would have been aware of any Finnish sources available in 1970s for his (gaming) article.

Then again Trotter seems to be very clear in his book, at least that how it appears from Wiki as I do not have the book, that the late shelling was deliberate and intentional, lasted for fifteen minutes, and indeed resulted in a high casualty rate, as quoted in the PB article of 1970s.

It would be interesting indeed to learn from other sources as well...

[Panssari Salama]

Though I all the same doubt, that the majority of victims on March, 13 - victims of artillery fire last 15 minutes of war. If I have correctly understood, the question was about it.

Yes, my question was about this particular topic with regards to the PB gaming article.

Initially I asked about this from the point of view of the article: shelling of withdrawing troops, or at least of troops who have come out into open, preparing to withdraw?

Now that there might be some fire behind the smoke, I am asking for other sources of events of Mach 13 including any information about casualties caused by the shelling.

Again, thanks to you and both Juhas for shedding more light into this.

[Ironmachine]

PS Who is Jack Radey?

And Jack Radey apparently was an owner of a game company )

Yes, you are right. Jack Radey is a well-known (whatever this means in the world of wargaming) wargame designer, and he ran People's War Games company in the late 1970's and 80's. Some of his games are Black Sea Black Death, Korsun Pocket and Duel for Kharkov. He is specially interested in the Red Army in World War II, and I have seen him jockingly qualified as "rather red fellow" and "unabashedly Communist good 'ole boy" and his company as "unabashedly Marxist"... in other words, he seems to be a lover of all things Soviet, which goes a loooong way to explain the comment in your link.

[Panssari Salama]

Thanks Ironmachine The pieces of this interesting jigsaw are starting to fall into their places !

[John T]

The Swedish volunteers recieved the same treatment.
Between 6 am and 11 am Nine dead and aprox 30 wounded.

The Swede's explanation was that it might been so easy that the Soviets didn't wanted to returned primed and ready rounds to transport packages.
Also a unusual large nummber of dud's whre reportad and even shells fired without fuzes.


BTW
My first war game where Arab Isreaeli wars the sequel of PanzerBlitz also by Avalon Hill game company

Cheers
/John T.

[Jagala]

A small correction to one of the comments above: hostilities ceased on both sides at the same time, i.e. at 1200 hrs Leningrad time according to the protocol attached to the peace agreement. In other words, there was no time zone mix-up (and if there had been, the Soviets would have been the ones to stop firing one hour sooner...)

The protocol also specified how and what rate both parties would move towards the new borders: within the first 24 hrs, i.e. by 1200 hrs on March 14th, the troops would move one kilometer, and then beginning either on the 15th or the 16th they would move at a minimum rate of 7 km per day (and keep the same minimum distance).

It is quite inconceivable that the Finns would have begun to move or even to act in any peacelike manner on the 13th. The casualties simply reflect that the Soviets continued to attack and that their artillery kept firing in the same continuous manner for hours. A lot may have escaped me in my reading but I while I have often read that the Soviet fire seemed heavier during the last hours, I have never read about any last minute artillery strikes that would have been preceded by silence of even by a diminished rate of fire.

My two cents about the origin of this story would be the same foreign journalists who wrote other tall stories about the war without ever leaving Hotel Kämp in Helsinki.

[Panssari Salama]

My two cents about the origin of this story would be the same foreign journalists who wrote other tall stories about the war without ever leaving Hotel Kämp in Helsinki.

I would agree with you here. Anyone who owns Trotter's book here? It would be interesting to know what his sources were...