Finnish war at sea

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igorr
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Finnish war at sea

#1

Post by igorr » 17 Feb 2010, 12:06

Hello all.
I have two big question about finnisch Navy operations during Continuation war.
1. Can smb provide list of all finnish anti-sub attacks, based on documents (not books)? Maybe not war in all, just 1942?
2. Same question about attacks of finnish MTB's.
In return i can answer on question about soviet and german naval operation.

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#2

Post by Mangrove » 17 Feb 2010, 19:52

igorr wrote: 1. Can smb provide list of all finnish anti-sub attacks, based on documents (not books)? Maybe not war in all, just 1942?
I collected all reported attacks from 1 January to 14 July 1942 from Lentolaivue 6's war diary (SPK 17825).

28 May 1942. 06.45 a.m. SB-1 bombed a submarine E of Suursaari.
16 June 1942. 00.00 a.m. SB-1 bombed a sub S of Pellinki.
16 June 1942. c. 6 p.m. DR-198 bombed a sub at Suursaari.
23 June 1942. 00.15 a.m. DR-198 bombed a "model 132" sub at Gulf of Finland.
25 June 1942. 01.10 a.m. SB-1 and SB-4 strafed and bombed a "model 122, B-class" sub at Gulf of Finland.
30 June 1942. c. 10.30 p.m. SB-7 bombed a spot of oil at Gulf of Finland.
2 July 1942. c. 10 a.m. SB-7 bombed a spot of oil at Gulf of Finland.
7 July 1942. c. 9 p.m. SB-1 bombed a spot of oil at Gulf of Finland.
12 July 1942. c. 10 p.m. DR-198 bombed a spot of oil at Gulf of Finland.
13 July 1942. c. 10-11 p.m. DR-198 and SB-4 bombed a spot of oil at Gulf of Finland.
14 July 1942. 3.35 p.m. SB-5 bombed a sub at Gulf of Finland. c. 7 p.m. SB-5 bombed a spot of oil near the previous site. Minelayer Ruotsinsalmi dropped 11 depth charges.
igorr wrote: In return i can answer on question about soviet and german naval operation.
I'm interested what effect did Finnish Air Force have to certain Soviet naval operations; for example Curtiss strafing attacks on landing crafts at Tuulos June 1944 or Finnish bombers on landing crafts at Vyborg bay in June-July 1944.


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Re: Finnish war at sea

#3

Post by igorr » 18 Feb 2010, 09:08

Big thanks, Martti!
As for your question, exact dates would be helpful. I'm even can't figure, where Tuulos is.
I can say, that thru all june and july no soviet ships was sunk by aircrafts. By landings on Vyborg islands 4-9/7/44 was lost many crafts (4.7 - 2 SKA (watch cutters), 4 MBK (sea armoured cutters), one BMO (armoured sub-chaser) one TKA (MTB) - all by mines; 8/9.7 - 20 tenders (landing crafts) and kutters - all by artillery). In soviet documents i can find only very few mention about enemy aviation. There has only sporadic flights single aircrafts, that named recon.
Some ships was damaged by aircrafts - but i can't tell, who resposive. May be you?
1. BMO-513 was damaged in Narva bay on 5/6/44. Fire, one engine out of action.
2. Same day M/S ZARNITSA and 4 TKA damaged by bombs on Lavansaari road (sov. sources tell that was Ju.87, but this may be wrong).
3. Cutter-minesweeper Nr.801 was damaged by bombs and strafing on 16.6.44 near cape Seiveste. Out if action for 12 days.
4. Same place, same day, same reason - cutters-minesweepers Nr.704, 712, 805, 808 and R-10
5. Watch cutter D-3-152 heavy damaged by bombs on 20.6.44 in Ola-lacht bay.
6. In Vyborg bay (Hmelevskaya) same day was damaged by aircrafts and artillery MBK-509 and 510, and in Narva bay - cutter-minesweeper OVR-10.
7. 21.6.44 damaged in Narva bay by bombs and strafing MO-109
8. Near Teikorsaari damaged on 4.7.44 watch cutter KM-48.

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#4

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 Feb 2010, 09:52


igorr
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Re: Finnish war at sea

#5

Post by igorr » 18 Feb 2010, 12:02

Aaa, Tuloksa!
According to soviet account, on 23.6.44, 5.47, 14 enemy's fighter-bombers attacks landing forse with bombs. One landing barge was damaged. One shot a/c was credited to ships, one to fighters.
Next day in 15.40 landing zone was strafed by 8 enemy fighters. Some soldiers and sailors was wounded. AA fire from tenders claims one aircraft shot down.

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#6

Post by Mangrove » 18 Feb 2010, 15:53

1.-4. are probably caused by German units. No idea where the fifth "Ola-lacht bay" is, lacht sounds like a Finnish word for "lahti" (bay).
igorr wrote: 6. In Vyborg bay (Hmelevskaya) same day was damaged by aircrafts and artillery MBK-509 and 510.
PLeLv 44 bombed landing crafts at Humaljoenlahti with 8x Junkers Ju 88s on 11.30 p.m.
igorr wrote: 8. Near Teikorsaari damaged on 4.7.44 watch cutter KM-48.
PLeLv 44 and 46 bombed ships at Makslahti, Koivistonsalmi and Teikarsaari with 8x Junkers Ju 88s (4x1000 kg + 8x500 kg + 16x25 kg) on 5.59 p.m. and 8x Bristol Blenheim (16x100 kg + 58x50 kg + 62x12,5 kg) on 1.10-1.12 p.m. Blenheims claimed a large ship sunk and two set on fire. Junkers did not claim any hits.
igorr wrote: According to soviet account, on 23.6.44, 5.47, 14 enemy's fighter-bombers attacks landing forse with bombs. One landing barge was damaged. One shot a/c was credited to ships, one to fighters.
PLeLv 44, 46, 48 with 11x Junkers Ju 88s, 2x Dornier Do 17s and 4x Bristol Blenheims (16x100 kg + 16x50 kg + 16x12,5 kg) escorted by 7x Curtiss Hawks from HLeLv 32. Blenheims claimed one ship sunk and one on fire. JK-259 was shot down.
igorr wrote: Next day in 15.40 landing zone was strafed by 8 enemy fighters. Some soldiers and sailors was wounded. AA fire from tenders claims one aircraft shot down.
9x Curtiss Hawks from HLeLv 32. CU-562 was shot and CU-581 brought down by anti-aircraft fire. All planes were more or less damaged by the fire. By the way, that is your source?

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#7

Post by igorr » 18 Feb 2010, 16:44

Very good.
My sources - "Chronic of GPW of Soviet Union on Baltic Sea, Ladoga and Chudskoe (can't remember finnish name - Peipussee in german) sea, issue 6 (1.1 - 18.7.44), Msocow, 1951, and "Losses of war ships of VMF, transport and fishing ships USSR in GPW 1941-45, Moscow, 1959.
This works long times was top sercret, and still, it is hard to find them.
Next, "lacht" is definetely of finnish roots. This "buchta" lay somewhere in Vyborg bay. This attack take place in 0.20 moscow time. May be this helps?

So can we little cooperate further?
I very interested in infos about anti-sub attacks by finnish ships against soviet subs.
By the way, i can't understood - is there finnish archives online on http://digi.narc.fi/digi/index.ka?lang=en_US or not?
Thought, i don't understood finnish anyway

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#8

Post by Mangrove » 18 Feb 2010, 20:28

igorr wrote: I very interested in infos about anti-sub attacks by finnish ships against soviet subs.
By the way, i can't understood - is there finnish archives online on http://digi.narc.fi/digi/index.ka?lang=en_US or not?
Could you post the original Russian titles too? Most of the wartime diaries have been digitized to the site on your link. There are hundreds of pages to read through so if you want to know more about some specific event on specific date it would be a lot easier to find information of it.

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#9

Post by igorr » 19 Feb 2010, 04:33

"ПОТЕРИ БОЕВЫХ КОРАБЛЕЙ И СУДОВ ВОЕННО-МОРСКОГО ФЛОТА, ТРАНСПОРТНЫХ, РЫБОЛОВНЫХ И ДРУГИХ СУДОВ СССР В ВЕЛИКУЮ ОТЕЧЕСТВЕННУЮ ВОЙНУ 1941-1945 гг.", ВОЕННОЕ ИЗДАТЕЛЬСТВО МИНИСТЕРСТВА ОБОРОНЫ СОЮЗА ССР, МОСКВА—1959.
"ХРОНИКА ВЕЛИКОЙ ОТЕЧЕСТВЕННОЙ ВОЙНЫ СОВЕТСКОГО СОЮЗА НА БАЛТИЙСКОМ МОРЕ И ЛАДОЖСКОМ ОЗЕРЕ, Выпуск 6. (1 января - 18 июля 1944 г.)", ВОЕННО-МОРСКОЕ ИЗДАТЕЛЬСТВО ВОЕННО-МОРСКОГО МИНИСТЕРСТВА СОЮЗА ССР, МОСКВА—1951.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Finnish war at sea

#10

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Feb 2010, 21:45

Hi,

I think to avoid a way too long single thread, it could be best way to deal every submarine detection/anti-sub attack case at threads of their own, leaving here a link.
Perhaps we could also have there the Soviet/Russian view of the battles.

For a starter not strictly according to the lines and parameters of igorr (or not mine either, as here comes info about three cases), but a few interesting and perhaps lesser known (at least in Finland I think) submarine cases at Finnish territorial waters during the Continuation War:
Soviet submarines at Petsamo fjord
-26th September 1941
-2nd October 1941
-22th October 1941

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1433576

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#11

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Feb 2010, 22:02

Martti Kujansuu wrote:There are hundreds of pages to read through so if you want to know more about some specific event on specific date it would be a lot easier to find information of it.
Very true.
Here a list from P.O. Ekman book Sukellusvenesotaa Itämerellä (Sub warfare at Baltic Sea) including some of the Finnish attributed cases that might help to narrow the cases.
In adition to that scan, also the sinkings of:
S 2 on 3rd Jan-40 (Finnish mines, laid by minelayer Louhi)
SC 406 on 26th May-43 (Minelayer Riilahti and German MFPs')
S 9 on 12th Aug-43 (Finnish? laid mine)
S 12 on 16th Aug-43 (Finnish? depth charges - mines)
could also perhaps be counted to Finns.

And of course also the several cases when Finnish countermeasures did not result sinking of the opponent.

Regards, Juha
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Re: Finnish war at sea

#12

Post by igorr » 21 Feb 2010, 15:03

So there some questions
1. 16.8.41 in 23.26msk 2 TKA attacked sub with one torpedo each, near Porkkalla, claims to sink her. Was it finnish sub? Any reports?
2. Same thing 19.8.41 - in 23.55msk 2 TKA attacked watch boat and claims to sink her near Porkkallan-Kallboda. TKA has bullet hits.
3. 9.9.41 4 TKA attacked in Tiiskeri area 2 M/S and 2 other cutters. 2 torpedoes was seen goes under enemy ships. Did finns fix this attack?
All three attack definetly was not against german ships.

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#13

Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Feb 2010, 01:09

Continuing here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=163238
under thread title Soviet MTB attacks Aug-Sept-41

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#14

Post by crolick » 22 Feb 2010, 13:56

I also have questions regarding Finnish navy:
1/ on 3 XII 1941 VETEHINEN attacked on surface (MTB-style ;) ) enemy convoy consisting of 7 ships. Is it known the exact location of the attack and result?! (4 torpedoes were fired, all presumed to be misses)
2/on 2 VII 1941 VESIHIISI attacked small merchant ship escorted by two FUGAS class minesweepers. Any idea what was the target?
3/according to Aromaa - http://users.tkk.fi/jaromaa/Navygallery ... s-cont.htm - on 3 VII 1941 SAUKKO attacked two PC in the harbour of Someri island. Though as far as I know this island was not in Soviet possession - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sommers Any idea how to solve this discrepancy?
4/ on 5 VIII 1941 VESIHIISI attacked attacked convoy: transport HILDA, sweeper MENZINSKIJ, patrol boats MO-212 and MO-142. Is it possible to confirm the identity of the mentioned above vessels?!


Cheers,
Andrzej

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Re: Finnish war at sea

#15

Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Feb 2010, 22:11

Continuing here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1434563
under thread title Finnish Submarine attacks 1941

Regards, Juha

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