Soviet Invasion Plans?

[Hanski]

Actually German troops didn't stay in Finland, but were transferred to Norway, and vise-versa.
They had some depots in Pori and Bothnian harbors, but these Garrisons were no way fighting units...
I wonder where that false opinion has grown?

Regards
Juha-Pekka

I don't think there are any "false opinions" here, when we look at it from "The Big Boys' angle of view", who were conducting this dialogue.

"The transit traffic and its arrangements opened an opportunity for the Germans to covertly increase their military connections with Finland and to bring more of their troops on the border of the Soviet Union, should this become topical. With this in mind they built a network of logistics bases through Northern Finland, with resources sufficient for more, if necessary, than just for the needs of the transit traffic that was fairly small in scope. A total of 30 000 German soldiers were transferred via Finland to Norway from September 1940 to May 1941." - The History of the Continuation War, Volume 1.

Regarding the secret protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its agreed-upon spheres of interest, the decisive point was that as Finland was agreed to belong to the USSR sphere, thus in principle basically anyone wearing a German uniform was in the wrong place if he appeared in Finland, in terms of the M-R Pact.

Therefore the USSR insisted that the German troops are "immediately withdrawn from Finland, which, under the compact of 1939, belongs to the Soviet Union's sphere of influence", regardless whether they were fighting units or depot personnel. And it was very simple for the Soviet intelligence to verify whether the German presence ended or whether it continued, as it did all the time until the break-out of the war.

[Mika68*]

If Soviet won the Winter war, whole inhabitants of Lapland was evacuoited to Sweden.
Most of southern Finnish were leave where they lived, I suppose.
That had been tragically to whole Finnish nation.
1991 Finland had independence, but what about Lapland. some Russian villages and military bases and nuclear weapons?
Lappish whom were forced to Sweden were swedish then, they were Swedish, not Finnish. They can't return to land of their ancestors. What you think?

[Philip S. Walker]

Can anyone tell me if the secret protocol of the Hitler-Molotov talk - the part regarding Finland - was somehow leaked to the Finnish government? And if so, then how was it leaked and in which form?

[Mika68*]

Soviet planned attack at Salla front 15th March 1940. Two or three divisions via Kuusamo to backside of Swedish troops in Märkäjärvi. After that Soviets had advanced to Swedish border. OK, I don't believe that Sweden had joined to the war despite of volunteers in Salla front.

[Mika68*]

I think that Hitler never attack to SU if Finland (old friend of Germany) didn't reach defeat victory in Winter War. Due to Winter war Hitler underestimated Soviet power.

[Juha Tompuri]

Can anyone tell me if the secret protocol of the Hitler-Molotov talk - the part regarding Finland - was somehow leaked to the Finnish government? And if so, then how was it leaked and in which form?

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=129622&hilit

Regards, Juha

[Philip S. Walker]

@Juha

Thanks for the link. However, I can't find an answer to my questions in it. I may be wrong, but the link only seems to deal with the 1939 pact, not with the 1940 talk between Hitler and Molotov in Berlin, which is what I am interested in specifically. Sorry for not making this more clear the first time around.

[Vaeltaja]

Of the German troops on Finland... By Upton they had 'depot' organization of > 2000 armed men in Finland organizing transports of 5000 men at a time (which he claimed to be oversized organization). Several camps along the 'Jäämeren tie' (Arctic Sea Road) and a depot at Ivalo. Though at least according to Upton it doesn't have seem to be the numbers which were the trouble but that unlike Soviet troops transiting to Hanko German troops marched/transited armed and their camps were guarded by armed soldiers.

[Philip S. Walker]

Part of the discussion splitted and moved under a new thread Molotov-Hitler negotiations Nov-40
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=174764&p=1553676#p1553676
/Juha

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Perhaps it's the right moment now to apologize for the way I originally burst into this forum and picked a fight with anyone in sight, causing Juha to lock two threads and so on. The new boy in the class always has to prove himself and show how tough he is - well, at least in the country where I partly grew up because of my mother's roots. Also, people there have a big problem with saying "sorry". However, I learned that later on, in England, so here it is: Sorry, pojkar. Bad behaviour.

This from one that used to carry a Suomi-gun in the service of his motherland ...

[Hanski]

Perhaps it's the right moment now to apologize for the way I originally burst into this forum and picked a fight with anyone in sight, causing Juha to lock two threads and so on. The new boy in the class always has to prove himself and show how tough he is - well, at least in the country where I partly grew up because of my mother's roots. Also, people there have a big problem with saying "sorry". However, I learned that later on, in England, so here it is: Sorry, pojkar. Bad behaviour.

This from one that used to carry a Suomi-gun in the service of his motherland ...

That's man's talk! Apology accepted, no hard feelings.

Indeed, there is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree when needed, it's all about how to do it respectfully.

An old Finnish saying: "When you shout into the forest, it will reply in kind". Sorry for my part if I have echoed too harshly at times

Cheers,
Hanski

[Philip S. Walker]

@Hanski.

Kiitos! Thanks for all the info!

@Whiskey

Thanks for many great informative postings. To you and others, these questions:

1.

STAVKA had created a general offensive plan against Finland at November 1940, so military plan was available when Molotov visited Berlin. (Soviet archives have this plan.)

I can't find any further information on this. Can you help? Perhaps a resume in English exists on the content?

2. Are there any further material that suggests Russian intentions/plans for an invasion of Finland between the Winter War and the Continuation War?

3. Do we know anything about how the Finnish High Command expected a Russian invasion during this period would be, or can we perhaps judge something about it from the precautions they were taking?

All the best, Phil

[John Hilly]

Philip, try this one

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=167054&p=1478663#p1478663

Greets
Juha-Pekka

[Philip S. Walker]

@John Hilly.

Thanks for the link!

I may very well have got this wrong, so allow me to try to clear things up.

A preceding post by an Estonian forum member called amateur describes the plan that your link leads to. I can't read Russian, but as far as I can make out this is not the exact plan we are looking for, but a larger Russian plan in case of a major war, primarily against Germany.

According to amateur, this plan was scrapped.

Apparently the Soviet Leaders did not like the plan and Shaposhnikov was replaced on the very same day. I assume that the part, which they did not like, was about Red Army strategy on the Finnish front.

It looks likely because:

Shaposhnikov's successor Meretskov presented a revised and updated plan to Stalin and Molotov on 18th of September 1940, which repeated most of the previous presentation signed by Shaposhnikov. But in addition Meretskov and Timoshenko sent on the very same day another presentation no 103203 "Considerations for Deployment of the Armed Forces of the USSR in Case of War with Finland" to Stalin and Molotov. It was labeled "Totally Confidential". This document was a detailed offensive plan for occupation of the entire Finnish territory.

Presumably, that is the plan Whiskey mentions. Or is it?

What puzzles me here is amateur's expression "in addition". Does he mean to say that plan no. 103203 is an additional PART of the major plan, i.e. that is it merely a SUBORDINATE part that deals with Finland in case of a major war between Russia and primarily Germany? Or is he saying that the new plan is largely the same as the old one apart from some changes made regarding Finland, and then IN ADDITION to that a WHOLE DIFFERENT PLAN is also handed in on the same day, a plan which deals with Finland as an isolated objective of an invasion during a situation where Russia isn't otherwise at war, and that INDIVIDUAL plan is no. 103203?

Then amateur goes on to say:

So in conclusion, I suppose that Meretskov was appointed instead of Shaposhnikov because the Soviet leaders thought that Shaposhnikov wasn't the man to do the job and complete the Soviet part of the Molotov Ribbentrop pact - that is to finalize the occupation of Finland.

As I have understood it, Shaposhnikov's plan was supposed only to deal with a major war between Russia and primarily Germany. In case of a such a war, we must surely assume that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is no longer in effect and therefore it has no relevance. How can someone be sacked for not fulfilling the intentions of a pact in a situation where that pact is no longer in effect? (Also amateur seems to suggest that Russia according to the pact had obliged herself to occupy Finland, which was hardly the case, no more than Germany had obliged herself to occupy, say, Romania - which, of course, didn't happen either.)

I'm not just trying to be pedantic here. If we are looking at a Russian plan for the invasion of Finland, it is essential to find out if it is an isolated plan that tries to utilize Germany's pledge not to intervene, as stated in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, or we are talking about a totally different situation where a major war has broken out between Russia and Germany and the pact has become redundant.

Hopefully, someone can clear this up. Perhaps we are simply talking about two or even tree different plans, all dealing with an occupation of Finland but under different circumstances. Or perhaps I'm just getting it all wrong ...

[Philip S. Walker]

I have been surfing a bit on this and found an interesting link:

http://jussina.puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi ... an-suomeen

As far as I can see from this article, built on a controversial publication by the Estonian author Mark Solonin, plan no. 103203 does NOT deal with an isolated Russian invasion of Finland, since the plan stipulates that Russia has fronts elsewhere and is ready to attack East Prussia, among other places.

My personal gut feeling is still that the Russians around this time MUST have had a plan for an isolated invasion into Finland in order to create more buffer zone between themselves and the Germans in Norway, cut Germany off from Petsamo and, with time, Kiruna too, etc. Such a plan would also be a very logical extension of what the Russians had already done in the Baltic states.

However, the way it looks to me at the moment plan no. 103203 is not that plan. And there are other dubious circumstances surrounding it as well:

a) It seems to have been made in an awful rush (two days) with the specific aim of pleasing Stalin in one of his fits of bitterness over what the Finns did to the Red Army in the Winter War.

b) Conclusions surrounding the plan so far have been based on writings by a somewhat sensationalist author with a well-known and strong personal agenda.

c) It seems unlikely to me that the major plan, in which 103203 is merely a part, was ever meant as more than an attempt to look at a certain scenario, which must have seemed very appealing to the Russians, but at the end of the day could have been no more than wishful thinking. It doesn't seem to have been ever followed up but was sent directly into obscurity. The whole scenario surrounding the making of the plan, as described by "amateur", seems to amplify that impression.

[John Hilly]

@ Philip
My interpretation is the same as yours in this:

Shaposhnikov's plan was supposed only to deal with a major war between Russia and primarily Germany.

Where I disagree with you is that the plan Stalin wanted, was a plan focusing only to occupation of Finland.

Greets to your relatives in Denmark!
Juha-Pekka