Finnish memorials, legions & brothers in arms

[Philip S. Walker]

[Split from Finnish memorials]

Two memorials in the photograph section concerning Helsinki have caught my attention.

The inscription on the main war memorial is translated into English as: "In memory of those lost in the war 1939-1944". I think a more correct translation would be: "In memory of those lost in war 1939-1944". In order not to give foreigners the wrong impression about modern Finland's view of its own history I would suggest omitting the "the" in the translation. As far as I know the Finnish language is equally open this this historically more correct interpretation.

Another inscription that I find even more striking is this one: "In the memory of volunteer Finns who lost their lives for the liberty of [Finnish] Fatherland while serving under German military forces [army] 1941 - 1943. Brothers in arms." I wonder if this reflects the current official view in Finland of those who served in the Finnish Legion in the SS.

[Jagala]

I don't imagine that I'm able to catch the finer nuances of the English language, but a word by word translation would be "In memory of those lost in war in the years 1939-1944". By "lost in war" is, of course, meant "missing in action".

Inscriptions on memorials are usually meant to reflect the views of those who erected them. There was no "Finnish Legion".

[Philip S. Walker]

I'm glad that we agree there is a mistake in the English translation of the inscription and hopefully it will be corrected so no one is led to believe there was just one war between Finland and Russia, lasting from 1939-44.

Perhaps the name "Finnisches Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen SS" it more correct, but as far as I know in general these national units in the Waffen-SS are referred to in English by the country's name in genitiv form followed by the word "Legion". I basically want to make sure we are talking about the same thing, and if we are I would like to know if any complaints have been made in Finland over this inscription.

Finally, can anyone tell me exactly what the term "Brothers in arms" is supposed to refer to in this particular case?

[Marcus Wendel]

The inscription on the main war memorial is translated into English as: "In memory of those lost in the war 1939-1944". I think a more correct translation would be: "In memory of those lost in war 1939-1944".

A good point and I will modify the text to avoid confusion when I rebuild the site (those whole Factbook is in the process of being rebuilt).
Actually the Swedish inscription on the memorial states "in the war", i.e. only one specific war, so the translation is in fact correct but still it can give the wrong impression.

/Marcus

[Philip S. Walker]

If the aim is to make it look like real English I would put "killed in action" instead of "lost in war".

In think the Swedish translation is in fact wrong. It is certainly wrong historically, and grammatically one is as good as the other, so to my mind it should have been "krig" instead of "kriget".

[Marcus Wendel]

If the aim is to make it look like real English I would put "killed in action" instead of "lost in war".

The text on the memorial specifically refers to those "lost" or "missing", not those "killed".

/Marcus

[Seppo Koivisto]

Kadonneiden muuri or Wall of the Missing is dedicated to those who became missing or whose body was not recovered from the field. I think that took place also in other theaters of war, thus the war meaning WWII in general.

[Marcus Wendel]

Avoid comments about other members and do not try to restart any discussions from locked threads.

/Marcus

[Refers to a now removed post by Philip S. Walker]

[Marcus Wendel]

A post by Philip S. Walker was removed.

/Marcus

[Philip S. Walker]

I have changed the criticized post. Please find it below in edited form. Feel free to delete the original.

****

In that case I think the most correct wording in English would be: "In remembrance of those who went missing in action 1939-1940."

Incidentally, I remember visiting that same location in Helsinki some 30 years ago and being puzzled by a memorial for some soldiers that had been killed in a year outside of any conflicts I know of in Finland. I think the year was 1934 and the stone was erected near a riverbank. Does anyone have any info on this?

I also seem to remember seeing a memorial up north by the Swedish border for Swedish soldiers killed in some skirmishes. I had heard that in some cases, during the Lapland War, Finnish units followed the retreating Germans into Swedish territory and as a result got into fights with Swedish border guards. If anyone has info on this I'd like to know some more about it.

There was also a huge German war memorial outside of Rovaniemi I remember. Bus loads of old German tourists were arriving with much chattering about their Finnish "Waffenbruder" and joint "Kampf unter dem Nordlicht" etc. It struck me that probably any Germans who had been killed in this area would probably have been killed by Finnish troops, which made the concept of this memorial a bit strange to me. Comments to enlighten me on this are most welcome, please.

[Jagala]

I'm glad that we agree there is a mistake in the English translation of the inscription and hopefully it will be corrected so no one is led to believe there was just one war between Finland and Russia, lasting from 1939-44.

I appreciate your concern.

Perhaps the name "Finnisches Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen SS" it more correct, but as far as I know in general these national units in the Waffen-SS are referred to in English by the country's name in genitiv form followed by the word "Legion". I basically want to make sure we are talking about the same thing, and if we are I would like to know if any complaints have been made in Finland over this inscription.

As far as I know, the foreign formations in Waffen-SS are referred to (when the need arises to refer to them all) as "formations" or "units" or "divisions" (which most of them were). "Legions" were, unless I am mistaken, rare, atypical and limited to a certain period of the war. FWIW your post was the first time I have ever come across such use of the word "Legion" (and a Google search doesn't give hits from any sources that should be taken seriously, either).

And when the Finnish battalion is specifically referred to in English-language literature, it is usually called a "battalion".

Finally, can anyone tell me exactly what the term "Brothers in arms" is supposed to refer to in this particular case?

To those who erected the memorial, I suppose, i.e. the veterans in the Finnish battalion.

[Jagala]

Soldiers get killed in accidents in peace time, too. IIRC there were two big accidents in the 1930s in or near Helsinki, both explosions during handling of naval mines or submarine torpedoes or laboratory testing of artillery ammunition.

There is no river anywhere near the cemetery and what you seem to remember must have been the sea shore.


What you remember seeing in Sweden was probably the memorial in Armasjärvi for the soldiers who drowned when a ferry transporting them sank.

I have never heard of any fire fights between Finnish troops and Swedish soldiers or border guards. It is true, however, that in some cases Finnish troops crossed the border but I do not know of a single case where they did so in pursuit of Germans.


The German military cemetery in Rovaniemi is the resting place of German soldiers from all parts of northern Finland. (The other one is the vicinity of Helsinki.) Some were originally buried (by the Germans themselves) in the vicinity, in some cases their remains were transferred from field cemeteries from or near the battlefields of 1941-1944 and in some cases they were transferred from where they had been buried by Finns during or after the Lapland War. And finally, in some cases their remains were brought there when they were eventually found in the wilderness.

[Philip S. Walker]

Try to go into google and tab in "The Dutch Legion", "The Norwegian Legion", "The Danish Legion" etc. and you will see these are all Waffen-SS units manned by non-Germans. Some of the references will actually take you back to this very site. The German term in some cases would be "Freikorps", named after the voluntary units that fought against left wing revolutionists in Germany after WWI. Due to their relatively small and uneven sizes these units couldn't be named by the established terms. In fact, the size caused practical problems which was one of the reasons the units mostly were dissolved in 1943 and merged into other formations ("Under Hagekors og Dannebrog," Aschehoug, Copenhagen, 1998).

The wording on this memorial, as translated, with it's use of the term "Brothers in Arms", might suggest to an English person that the regular Finnish army and the Finnish SS volunteers were spiritually one and the same, as though it is Finland saluting them: "You were our brothers in arms."

[Mikko H.]

The wording on this memorial, as translated, with it's use of the term "Brothers in Arms", might suggest to an English person that the regular Finnish army and the Finnish SS volunteers were spiritually one and the same, as though it is Finland saluting them: "You were our brothers in arms."

Good point. I think the message depends on who erected the memorial. If it was sponsored by, say, the state of Finland or Finnish Defense Forces, then your interpretation would be correct. If, OTOH, the memorial was erected by veterans of the Waffen-SS volunteer battalion, then it would be battalion comrades commemorating battalion comrades. BTW, aseveljeys ('brothers-in-arms-hood' if such an expression exists in English ) was what the Finnish-German relationship was officially called in Finland during the Continuation War, and very often afterwards.

I, for one, have never seen the Finnish volunteer battalion in Waffen-SS being called a legion. Not in Finnish nor German sources. I guess the difference was that the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway were occupied by Germans and the volunteer movement was largely sponsored and organized by Germans. BTW, the Finnish leadership and German Wehrmacht would have wanted the Finnish volunteer battalion to serve in the Wehrmacht Heer, like the WWI-era Royal Prussian Jäger Battalion 27, which inspired the WWII-era volunteer battalion.

[Hanski]

The wording on this memorial, as translated, with it's use of the term "Brothers in Arms", might suggest to an English person that the regular Finnish army and the Finnish SS volunteers were spiritually one and the same, as though it is Finland saluting them: "You were our brothers in arms."

With factual knowledge of Finnish war history, you would know that these volunteers returned from Germany to serve in the regular Finnish army. And if you take the trouble of reading my translation of Professor Ohto Manninen's text on another thread in this section, you will get to know the historical background of establishing Finnisches Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen-SS in the first place.

as I know in general these national units in the Waffen-SS are referred to in English by the country's name in genitiv form...

So, anything in English is the golden standard of The Whole Truth, and even memorials on cemeteries should have their texts with the English-speaking reader in mind? Might there be just a tinge of cultural imperialism at play here?