Battle of Mäntyvaara 20th December 1939

[Mika68*]

Two Soviet Divisions (other in frontline, other following it) crossed Finn-Soviet border at Salla in Finnish Lapland on 30th November 1939.
There was one Finnish battalion (Er.P 17, so called Sallan Pataljoona) against them in beginning.
Finnish Army headquarter noticed soon that overwhelming enemy was pushing straight towards to Swedish border from Salla to Tornio. That way was more simple and shorter route than complex route from Suomussalmi to Oulu.
Rapidly two Finnish regiments and one battalion (and some smaller units) was ordered to Salla front. They came at moment Finnish defence was collapsing there in mid of December.
The most significant battle was maybe battle of Mäntyvaara on 20th December 1939. One Soviet battalion was advancing via forests to backside of Finnish troops which were in Joutsijärvi . The battalion wanted reach main road Salla-Kemijärvi at Mäntyvaara. Fortunately there were two Finnish companies (of Er.P 17) just in Mäntyvaara on rest from frontline.
Finnish won the battle. Finnish lost 17 and Soviets about 300 men as dead. It was man to man fightning with knives, rifles as mauls and fists. Finnish and Soviets were higgledy-piggledy.
That is what-if question, but how about the Soviet battalion had won the battle?


Here war diary of Er.P 17 of Mäntyvaara battle:

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1537933
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1537934
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1537935
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1537936

We must also remember physics of people in those times. Finnish soldier was weak and hungry, but Soviet soldier was more weak and hungry! Nevertheless we can compare healthy of nowadays.

[Mika68*]

The statue of battle of Mäntyvaara Kemijärvi

mantyvaara1_small.jpg (3.67 KiB) Viewed 1034 times

Here is statue of the battle. About 380 Soviet soldiers had been buried around the statue.

[Mika68*]

That is only feelings, Mutu-tuntuma to Finnish.
Stalin murdered about 9000 Finnish 1938 which were moved to SU early of 30's for build paradise of labour (the first labour state on the world) . Most of them were Finnish Red's, they had lot of relatives in Finland and they have friends. You can understand bitterness when the Winter war began.

[Slon-76]

That is what-if question, but how about the Soviet battalion had won the battle?.

Nothing special.
In the version quite worse for Finns, 122th is division would reach Kemiyarvi lake. 122 divisions are already past about 100 kilometers and it is simply tired. Offensive on December 20 would be in any event " final accord". 273 mountain rifle regiment already stepped back moreover.
But most likely, Finnish command simply would remove of the region By Pelkosenniemi one battalion, also, together with Er.P 17 would destroy or rejected Soviet battalion. Is more precise that from it would remain.

[Mika68*]

there was also another Soviet division following the front division... or..??

But I understand that the first division was beaten at Pelkosenniemi and Mäntyvaara and the second wanted only defeat after the losses.

[Mika68*]

That is what-if question, but how about the Soviet battalion had won the battle?.

Nothing special.
In the version quite worse for Finns, 122th is division would reach Kemiyarvi lake. 122 divisions are already past about 100 kilometers and it is simply tired. Offensive on December 20 would be in any event " final accord". 273 mountain rifle regiment already stepped back moreover.
But most likely, Finnish command simply would remove of the region By Pelkosenniemi one battalion, also, together with Er.P 17 would destroy or rejected Soviet battalion. Is more precise that from it would remain.

What means "precise" to English?

[Mika68*]

When Russia apologise the Winter war and show remorse, we Finnish are satisfied and we do not want any areas back.
Just apologise and remorse are enough.
Good luck!

[Slon-76]

What means "precise" to English?

“Whether if to be exact, that remained from a battalion.”

there was also another Soviet division following the front division... or..??

They were not. 88 division started unloading in Kem' only at the end of December, but up to the end of war in full structure and has not gathered.
At the front its units have started to appear not earlier the middle of January

But I understand that the first division was beaten at Pelkosenniemi and Mäntyvaara and the second wanted only defeat after the losses.

Well 122 division nevertheless has not been broken. By December, 24 of its loss have made 1563 persons. Including 346 KIA, 177 MIA and 1040 WIA. From 16347 men.

[Mika68*]

What means "precise" to English?

“Whether if to be exact, that remained from a battalion.”

there was also another Soviet division following the front division... or..??

They were not. 88 division started unloading in Kem' only at the end of December, but up to the end of war in full structure and has not gathered.
At the front its units have started to appear not earlier the middle of January

But I understand that the first division was beaten at Pelkosenniemi and Mäntyvaara and the second wanted only defeat after the losses.

Well 122 division nevertheless has not been broken. By December, 24 of its loss have made 1563 persons. Including 346 KIA, 177 MIA and 1040 WIA. From 16347 men.

Only in Mäntyvaara had buried about 380 Soviet soldiers and you write that 346 KIA of whole divison.
Which you trust, Finnish or Russians?
OK, 177 MIA's including that 380, maybe.

About 380 Soviet soldiers buried at the statue + MIA.

[Mika68*]

My friend Slon-76, when you are driving with car in Finland, I recommend to familiar that statue of Mäntyvaara battle.
I shall to visit there, many times I've drove nearby via the road, but never visit at the statue.

[Mika68*]

What means "precise" to English?

“Whether if to be exact, that remained from a battalion.”

there was also another Soviet division following the front division... or..??

They were not. 88 division started unloading in Kem' only at the end of December, but up to the end of war in full structure and has not gathered.
At the front its units have started to appear not earlier the middle of January

But I understand that the first division was beaten at Pelkosenniemi and Mäntyvaara and the second wanted only defeat after the losses.

Well 122 division nevertheless has not been broken. By December, 24 of its loss have made 1563 persons. Including 346 KIA, 177 MIA and 1040 WIA. From 16347 men.

How you explain that 15th March 1940 3 Soviet divisions had advanced to Finland via Kuusamo and Salla if there was only one weak division in Kantalahti??

[Slon-76]

Only in Mäntyvaara had buried about 380 Soviet soldiers and you write that 346 KIA of whole divison.
Which you trust, Finnish or Russians?
OK, 177 MIA's including that 380, maybe.

I in this case do not see any contradictions. Irrevocable losses of the Soviet party(side) 346+177=523 men. From them the most part was lost / missing as a result of unsuccessful spot-check of a battalion on December, 20. By the way, and how are you doing with captured in it to fight?

How you explain that 15th March 1940 3 Soviet divisions had advanced to Finland via Kuusamo and Salla if there was only one weak division in Kantalahti??

We with you about December speak, instead of about March. After defeat of 163-th and 44-th divisions, 122-n division all the same it would be removed back as it and was in a reality. Because there was nothing to cover its flanks. Therefore I also have written, that for Finns in any case of anything would not change.

[Mika68*]

Most of Soviets died, part of them escaped. I have no recognition of POW's in Finnish war diaries.
Finnish war diaries underestimated amount of died enemys. Later had came perfect than about 380 Soviets died in Mäntyvaara.