Why did not Finland help Norway?

[Philip S. Walker]

(Split from "Suomi, Finland Had We Not Fought")

About 95000 Finnish soldiers lost their lives 1939-45, not 80000.

If you go back and read again, you will see that I was only referring to the Continuation War, not the Winter War. It is one of the manipulative things about this video, that it sees the two wars as one and the same.

It may seem that way to Finnish people, but to the rest of the World that is one big difference. In the Winter War Finland fought for her freedom and independence alone. In the Continuation War, Finland was fighting alongside Nazi Germany with a lot of cooperation between to two armies.

There are many redeeming factors for this, but still the fact remains that the cooperation took place, and that is what most outsiders will immediately latch on to. That is a severe problem for Finland's international image, and this video tries to make up for it but in a very bad way, as explained in my previous post.

To point out the situation, I will repeat this example which I urge readers to consider very seriously:

When you were fighting the Winter War, Norway was on the brink of a German invasion. How would you have felt if the Norwegians, purely in order to protect themselves, in your darkest hour of need and despair, had decided to become co-belligerent with the Soviet Union, let Soviet troops into Norwegian territory, sent off half a million Norwegian troops to support some Soviet invasion and oppression of other nations, perhaps in the Baltics?

Of course, it's a way-out example and the point here is not to turn it into a "what if" scenario by any means. The point is just to ask you: how would you feel about that, my Finnish friends? And once you've clarified that, the next question would be: how could the Norwegians EVER manage to explain to you that they had done the only thing that was possible to them at the time.

I have also earlier asked the question of how many Finns immediately tried to come to the rescue of Norway when that country was occupied by Germany in the spring of 1940 and our Norwegian brothers were fighting bravely and desperately for THEIR lives and independence against a cruel and dictatorial super power. And later on, how many Finnish weapons were smuggled into Norway and Denmark to help the resistance movements fighting desperate against the cruel dictatorships that were trying to crush the freedom and independence of the Nordic countries?

These are factors that Danes and Norwegians will immediately concentrate on when they try to judge how sympathetic they ought to be towards the Finns in the Continuation War.

[Mika68*]

About 95000 Finnish soldiers lost their lives 1939-45, not 80000.

If you go back and read again, you will see that I was only referring to the Continuation War, not the Winter War. It is one of the manipulative things about this video, that it sees the two wars as one and the same.

It may seem that way to Finnish people, but to the rest of the World that is one big difference. In the Winter War Finland fought for her freedom and independence alone. In the Continuation War, Finland was fighting alongside Nazi Germany with a lot of cooperation between to two armies.

There are many redeeming factors for this, but still the fact remains that the cooperation took place, and that is what most outsiders will immediately latch on to. That is a severe problem for Finland's international image, and this video tries to make up for it but in a very bad way, as explained in my previous post.

To point out the situation, I will repeat this example which I urge readers to consider very seriously:

When you were fighting the Winter War, Norway was on the brink of a German invasion. How would you have felt if the Norwegians, purely in order to protect themselves, in your darkest hour of need and despair, had decided to become co-belligerent with the Soviet Union, let Soviet troops into Norwegian territory, sent off half a million Norwegian troops to support some Soviet invasion and oppression of other nations, perhaps in the Baltics?

Of course, it's a way-out example and the point here is not to turn it into a "what if" scenario by any means. The point is just to ask you: how would you feel about that, my Finnish friends? And once you've clarified that, the next question would be: how could the Norwegians EVER manage to explain to you that they had done the only thing that was possible to them at the time.

I have also earlier asked the question of how many Finns immediately tried to come to the rescue of Norway when that country was occupied by Germany in the spring of 1940 and our Norwegian brothers were fighting bravely and desperately for THEIR lives and independence against a cruel and dictatorial super power. And later on, how many Finnish weapons were smuggled into Norway and Denmark to help the resistance movements fighting desperate against the cruel dictatorships that were trying to crush the freedom and independence of the Nordic countries?

These are factors that Danes and Norwegians will immediately concentrate on when they try to judge how sympathetic they ought to be towards the Finns in the Continuation War.

I have simple answer.

Finland was tiny and poor country.
How we can support Norway when SU was whole the time pressuring us? As you know Germany and SU were allies these times.
If we send support to Norway, SU had reason to attack Finland.

Willness to help Norway was surely, but our situation was desperate.

Finland was really poor and tiny country after Winter war. We was fightning about our lives.

[Hanski]

I have also earlier asked the question of how many Finns immediately tried to come to the rescue of Norway when that country was occupied by Germany in the spring of 1940 and our Norwegian brothers were fighting bravely and desperately for THEIR lives and independence against a cruel and dictatorial super power. And later on, how many Finnish weapons were smuggled into Norway and Denmark to help the resistance movements fighting desperate against the cruel dictatorships that were trying to crush the freedom and independence of the Nordic countries?

These are factors that Danes and Norwegians will immediately concentrate on when they try to judge how sympathetic they ought to be towards the Finns in the Continuation War.

After barely having survived the Winter War, what would you really expect? All the surviving men and weapons were sorely needed for the second round with the USSR, if the nation was to survive.

If these are the criteria for Danish and Norwegian symphathy, please ban us for good.

[Philip S. Walker]

John Hilly: Did the western allies hold their hands over Czechoslovakia, who weren't part of the Nazi aggression towards any piece loving countries in the world?

I don't think you can compare. Had Finland been in anything like a situation such as Czechoslovakia's after WWII, it could never have kept its independence under any circumstances.

There is no doubt that Finland's struggle in the Winter War had an enormous effect on the sympathy of the Western democracies, and that sympathy would have remained as strong had it not been for the Continuation War. Not to have become co-belligerent with Germany could only have helped Finland's diplomatic situation in the aftermath of WWII, whichever way you look at it.

Mika: Finland was tiny and poor country. How we can support Norway when SU was whole the time pressuring us? As you know Germany and SU were allies these times. If we send support to Norway, SU had reason to attack Finland.

All it needs is for people to cross the border, ask for a gun and join in. A lot of the Norwegian fighting was quite improvised and impromptu anyway - people running into weapons depots, picking up guns and starting to fight - that kind of thing. Or do what the Swedes did in the Winter War, allow any personnel in the Finnish army to go to Norway bringing along his personal equipment. Even just a few hundred would have made a moral difference and shown that Finland took Nordic solidarity seriously - would make an enormous difference today, as well.

Mika: Finland was really poor and tiny country after Winter war. We was fighting about our lives.

So were the Norwegians and they needed help.

Hanski: After barely having survived the Winter War, what would you really expect?

Not exactly a massive, official Finnish military contribution, I completely agree with that. But just a few hundred volunteers, ambulances maybe, etc., the kind of help the Finns had received themselves in the Winter War.

Hanski: If these are the criteria for Danish and Norwegian symphathy, please ban us for good.

I'm just trying to show you what the picture looks like from the outside and why you should be careful not to push things over the edge and risk losing what you already have, as I believe this video does.

[Mika68*]

John Hilly: Did the western allies hold their hands over Czechoslovakia, who weren't part of the Nazi aggression towards any piece loving countries in the world?

I don't think you can compare. Had Finland been in anything like a situation such as Czechoslovakia's after WWII, it could never have kept its independence under any circumstances.

There is no doubt that Finland's struggle in the Winter War had an enormous effect on the sympathy of the Western democracies, and that sympathy would have remained as strong had it not been for the Continuation War. Not to have become co-belligerent with Germany could only have helped Finland's diplomatic situation in the aftermath of WWII, whichever way you look at it.

Mika: Finland was tiny and poor country. How we can support Norway when SU was whole the time pressuring us? As you know Germany and SU were allies these times. If we send support to Norway, SU had reason to attack Finland.

All it needs is for people to cross the border, ask for a gun and join in. A lot of the Norwegian fighting was quite improvised and impromptu anyway - people running into weapons depots, picking up guns and starting to fight - that kind of thing. Or do what the Swedes did in the Winter War, allow any personnel in the Finnish army to go to Norway bringing along his personal equipment. Even just a few hundred would have made a moral difference and shown that Finland took Nordic solidarity seriously - would make an enormous difference today, as well.

Mika: Finland was really poor and tiny country after Winter war. We was fighting about our lives.

So were the Norwegians and they needed help.

Hanski: After barely having survived the Winter War, what would you really expect?

Not exactly a massive, official Finnish military contribution, I completely agree with that. But just a few hundred volunteers, ambulances maybe, etc., the kind of help the Finns had received themselves in the Winter War.

Hanski: If these are the criteria for Danish and Norwegian symphathy, please ban us for good.

I'm just trying to show you what the picture looks like from the outside and why you should be careful not to push things over the edge and risk losing what you already have, as I believe this video does.

You systemically forget situation of Finland 1940-41.
You blame us to co-operate with Germany.
OK, we had another choice, and you know it.

Additionally, co-operation with Nazi-Germany lasted untl 1945, how about with that another choice?

It is so easy to tell what to do, when you are on beach and your friend is drunken on lake.

[Philip S. Walker]

@Mika

You systemically forget situation of Finland 1940-41.

I'm just reminding you that others had a hard time, too. They were desperately fighting a dictatorial power that Finland at the same time teamed up with. As you know both the Norwegian and the Danish people showed Finland considerable amounts of solidarity during the Winter War. It would have been nice to see just a little bit of that reciprocated, at least with regard to Norway.

You blame us to co-operate with Germany. OK, we had another choice, and you know it.

No, I'm not blaming Finland for cooperating with Germany, though perhaps not ALL Finns were quite as sad about having to do that as some people want to make it look - just look at the many YouTube clips etc. Also, it doesn't exactly look as if Mannerheim was crying on the day when the Continuation War started, or when he told his troops to cross the old border. However, THIS is what I'm doing: I'm trying to make you look at the situation from the other side and understand the feelings you're up against. Please consider my example:

When you were fighting the Winter War, Norway was on the brink of a German invasion. How would you have felt if the Norwegians, purely in order to protect themselves, in your darkest hour of need and despair, had decided to become co-belligerent with the Soviet Union, let Soviet troops into Norwegian territory, sent off half a million Norwegian troops to support some Soviet invasion and oppression of other nations, perhaps in the Baltics?

Of course, it's a way-out example and the point here is not to turn it into a "what if" scenario by any means. The point is just to ask you: how would you feel about that, my Finnish friends? And once you've clarified that, the next question would be: how could the Norwegians EVER manage to explain to you that they had done the only thing that was possible to them at the time.

+++

Mika: It is so easy to tell what to do, when you are on beach and your friend is drunken on lake.

A little show of sympathy and compassion with your friends and perhaps a simple apology costs nothing, even when you had no other choice.

[Hanski]

A little show of sympathy and compassion with your friends and perhaps a simple apology costs nothing, even when you had no other choice.

Even if it costs nothing, for an apology to be genuine we need to know what exactly we are sorry about.

Above you suggest Finnish measures in armed combat against Germany in occupied Norway and Denmark, at a time when Germany was the only hope on the face of the earth for outside help for Finland in its struggle for survival against the USSR.

Such activity would have been 1) politically utterly irresponsible when the highest priority in Finland was set at maintaining national independence 2) militarily unrealistic in terms of having an effect on the duration of the German occupation.

[Vaeltaja]

Finnish help for the Norwegians would have needed to go through the Lapland - where road network was pretty much non-existing at the time - to northern Norway. Neutral Sweden would certainly have interned any volunteers headed for Norway and Kriegsmarine dominated the waters in the southern Baltic Sea. Given that conflict lasted barely for 2 months it seems unlikely that volunteers could have reached battlefields.

Not to mention that Finnish government had good reason not to allow any volunteers to reach Norway. After capturing Denmark (and southern Norway) Germany had near absolute control on both Finnish and Swedish foreign trade (given that neither trust nor willingness to trade with Soviet Union existed).

Also... http://nuav.rforum.biz/t105-finnish-sol ... orway-1940

[Philip S. Walker]

@Hanski

Even if it costs nothing, for an apology to be genuine we need to know what exactly we are sorry about.

I'm talking of course of being sorry for supporting and cooperating with the nation that had occupied Norway at the time and furthermore was an extremely brutal and racist regime that was threatening to take over all of Europe, if not the entire planet - even if Finland had no other choice. It's not a mathematical question, or even an issue of logic, merely a question of displaying basic empathy with your fellow man.

If someone push you, and you accidentally step on the toes of someone else, it's still a good idea to apologise - for all parties. Only a person with a bad upbringing will start bragging instead about how masterly he himself avoided falling over.

Above you suggest Finnish measures in armed combat against Germany in occupied Norway and Denmark

I was just talking about people lining up in various ways to help the Norwegians, as many people did all over the world to help the Finns in the Winter War. But while we're at it, why not a more official and solid support ... look below:

, at a time when Germany was the only hope on the face of the earth for outside help for Finland in its struggle for survival against the USSR.

We're talking April-June 1940 here, when Finland was still looking at several other options than Germany. One very important one would be to keep Northern Norway open for communication with Britain. So a Finnish help would not only help the Norwegians, but also help Finland herself, as well as strengthen the relationship with Britain and help crushing the Nazis.

Such activity would have been 1) politically utterly irresponsible when the highest priority in Finland was set at maintaining national independence

If you want to keep your national independence I think it would make much more sense to help the free world than helping Nazi Germany.

2) militarily unrealistic in terms of having an effect on the duration of the German occupation.

And the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians who volunteered to help Finland in the Winter War, did they think in this way too? Or the British and the French when they sent troops to Narvik?

[Philip S. Walker]

@Vaeltaja

Finnish help for the Norwegians would have needed to go through the Lapland - where road network was pretty much non-existing at the time - to northern Norway.

Was it even considered for a moment? Was Britain and France consulted in order to find a common solution through cooperation?

Given that conflict lasted barely for 2 months it seems unlikely that volunteers could have reached battlefields.

You can get quite far in two months if you really want to.

After capturing Denmark (and southern Norway) Germany had near absolute control on both Finnish and Swedish foreign trade (given that neither trust nor willingness to trade with Soviet Union existed).

Which makes it all the more important to keep Northern Norway open for communication with the Allied Nations.

Hanski: After barely having survived the Winter War, what would you really expect?

The end of the Winter War came quite suddenly and, to many, unexpectedly. Finland was full of well-trained soldiers, particularly foreign volunteers, ready and eager to fight but no one to fight against. There was lots of potential there to turn against the Germans in Norway.

[Vaeltaja]

Was it even considered for a moment? Was Britain and France consulted in order to find a common solution through cooperation?

Well... There was 'a bit' of a resentment in the air... http://ww2today.com/mannerheim-addresse ... nnish-army

"...
We are proudly conscious of the historic duty, which we shall continue to fulfill: The defense of that western civilization which has been our heritage for centuries, but we also know that we have paid to the very last penny any debt we may have owed to the West.
..."

You can get quite far in two months if you really want to.

Certainly, but do keep in mind that Winter War lasted longer and yet foreign volunteers generally took part into fighting only during the last month of the war.

The end of the Winter War came quite suddenly and, to many, unexpectedly. Finland was full of well-trained soldiers, particularly foreign volunteers, ready and eager to fight but no one to fight against. There was lots of potential there to turn against the Germans in Norway.

Finns were war-weary. Really badly - those "105 days of honor" took quite a toll. Country was out of artillery ammo, and fairly close of running out of rifle ammo as well. In short army was in no shape to go waging a war on foreign (even if friendly) soil. Add to this the problems of resettling more than 400 000 refugees and you should see why nothing happened.

There might have been potential. But there were no means.

[JAK]

The end of the Winter War came quite suddenly and, to many, unexpectedly. Finland was full of well-trained soldiers, particularly foreign volunteers, ready and eager to fight but no one to fight against. There was lots of potential there to turn against the Germans in Norway.

I remember reading that while there was eager vounteers in Finland, their training wasn't exactly up to the standards, though I have read same about Finnish replacement solfiers in the last battles late February and early March. Another point about the volunteers was bad or non-existent equipment as Finland could barely supply her own troops not to mention foreigners. I think there would have been similair difficulties in Norway...

Jari

[Dave Bender]

Do you expect Finland to attack the RN laying minefields in Norwegan coastal waters? Do you expect Finland to contribute troops to oppose the expected Anglo-French invasion only to find that Germany has preempted the Allied attack?

Finland should avoid this mess like the plague.

[JAK]

I think Philip was meaning that the Finnish volunteers would have joined the Norwegian cause in Allied camp someway similair to the Swedish volunteers in Winter War. They were apparently rather well equipped but at least according to wikipedia not that well trained.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Volunteer_Corps_%28Winter_War%29

Jari

[Hanski]

If someone push you, and you accidentally step on the toes of someone else, it's still a good idea to apologise

Are you suggesting that Finnish action directly caused loss of Norwegian or Danish life, or some significant damage to these countries? Or are you suggesting we should apologise for what Finland's later co-belligerent did to Denmark and Norway even before Hitler had ordered the planning of Operation Barbarossa and before its future attitude towards Finland was known?

I was just talking about people lining up in various ways to help the Norwegians, as many people did all over the world to help the Finns in the Winter War.

To give an analogy like yours above, after the Winter War Finland was comparable to a surviver of a severe accident against all odds, with very real and tangible losses sustained (please compare losses of the Winter War to those occuring in Denmark and Norway during the German conquest). - I suppose it was then quite rude and impolite not to line up for helping neighbors, after a nation of 3.8 million had lost its soldiers 19.576 dead, 3.273 missing, 16.437 badly wounded and 27.120 moderately wounded, war losses in merchant navy of 65 persons and civilian deaths 892, plus 11% loss of arable land, destruction of buildings and other infrastructure, need to re-settle refugees, impending threat of famine, severe shortages in the remaining weapons and ammunition for self-defense, the former enemy occupying a bridgehead close to the capital city and according to its political attitude, preparing to finish you off?

We're talking April-June 1940 here, when Finland was still looking at several other options than Germany.

Yes, and it turned out there was none. A brilliant idea then to destroy even the last hope, isn't it!

One very important one would be to keep Northern Norway open for communication with Britain. So a Finnish help would not only help the Norwegians, but also help Finland herself, as well as strengthen the relationship with Britain and help crushing the Nazis.

If the Western Allies would have first crushed the communists threatening our lives, I'm sure Finland would have been eager to join against the Nazis. It seems hard for you to understand why Finns did not want to commit national suicide just to earn praise from the Western Allies who were absent in our hour of need?

If you want to keep your national independence I think it would make much more sense to help the free world than helping Nazi Germany.

I do believe that is indeed what you think, and I am very grateful for the Finnish statesmen of 1940-41 having had more realism than that. How did the slogan "free world" help Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians from the massacres and deportations of the Soviet occupier?

2) militarily unrealistic in terms of having an effect on the duration of the German occupation.

And the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians who volunteered to help Finland in the Winter War, did they think in this way too? Or the British and the French when they sent troops to Narvik?

Had the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians suffered equal losses to those of the Finnish Winter War (see above) before their volunteers were sent to Finland? Of course we Finns feel gratitude for that and thank you wholeheartedly for all help received, but should we really apologise for not accepting the fate of the Baltic countries for ourselves, even if that would have meant glory in the eyes of a Danish journalist in Ireland 70 years later?