Latokka

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Vaeltaja
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Joined: 27 Jul 2010, 21:42

Re: Latokka

#16

Post by Vaeltaja » 04 Jun 2011, 13:46

And?

In the TV document they are continuosly stating that goal would have been to capture the island. If you read the war diaries of the operation the goal of the operation for German ferries and their landing party was only to raid the island (ie. not to hold it). Germans had nowhere enough manpower to actually garrison the island nor did they have means to support any type of garrison left in there. Also every other place mentions Talvela as being only the 'father' of the naval detachment K and EFO, to operation Brazil i haven't seen anything of Talvela's involvement, unlike what the document tries to tell you. They did got the actual German combat losses right though - only 1 ferry was lost due Soviet actions.

Document seems to be having an intent of casting blame of forgetting Suho to Finns - which is odd since that was never a Finnish operation to begin with. Soviet glorifications of the events at Suho seems oddly similar to glorification of events centuries back in Riilahti (ie. Battle of Gangut) where Russia Empire gained its first naval victory - better not mention the point that Russians had there ~10-fold superiority both in manpower and ships over the Swedes, such details never really fit into the image of the 'heroic victories'.

BarSeek
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Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 08:52
Location: Käkisalmi

Re: Latokka

#17

Post by BarSeek » 06 Jun 2011, 22:14

TV documentary probably has little to do with the things that actually happened or had been planned. I do not understand Finnish speech, but every other statement declared by Russian participants can be disproved by documents. Just for an example, Pavel Pogonjev in part 2 (03:23-04:00) declared that no single dead German was found on Suho after their retreat. Though Russians reported about five dead Germans found. Same veteran then said that selected cut-throats were used for landing party. Germans reported following about their landing party :
Die Teilnehmer der Stosstrupps waren für diese Unternehmen ausgebildete Flakartilleristen. Der Stosstrupp Schwarze bestand aus einem Einsatztrupp der K.O.F. II unter Führung des Sonderführers Schwarze. An dem Kampf beteiligten sich weiter die Besatzungen der angelandeten I-Boote, die mit ihren M.G. und 2 cm Geschützen und als Munitionsträger den harten Angriff unterstützten. Die vermissten 4 Soldaten sind von diesen Besatzungen.
BTW, does anybody know what the unit is "K.O.F II" from which sonderführer Schwarze's cut-throats were selected ?


Jagala
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Joined: 29 Apr 2009, 14:11

Re: Latokka

#18

Post by Jagala » 07 Jun 2011, 10:22

"Kriegsorganisation Finnland", probably. I.e. something to do with Korvetten- or Fregattenkapitän Alexander Cellarius and his intelligence (and other) activities.

BarSeek
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Posts: 106
Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 08:52
Location: Käkisalmi

Re: Latokka

#19

Post by BarSeek » 07 Jun 2011, 23:32

Thank you, Jagala. In diaries of Detachment K one can find the name of lieutenant Werner Schwarze who arranged dropping of spies and saboteurs to Russian rear by boats of Detachment. When K.O.F. is "Kriegsorganisation Finnland" then that is very probably the same person. Werner Schwarze is well known by his activities in summer 1941 as a liaison officer between "Erna" detachment and 18 Army. Natural question about Estonians on Suho arises in relation with his person.
There is another question about his rank. AFAIK sonderführer is a civilian skilled person who has no military training. How could such a guy be a leader of landing group ?

Jagala
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Re: Latokka

#20

Post by Jagala » 08 Jun 2011, 08:45

A sonderführer could apparently also have a "nur eine ungenügende militärische Ausbildung". (BTW the Finns had their "sotilasvirkamies".)

But I'd hazard a guess that Schwarze was leading the group because its mission was to capture documents was assumed to contain valuable information (about radio codes etc) and this required knowledge of Russian and ability to quickly recognize what was worth taking and what was junk.

FWIW it would seem that Sonderführer was a common rank among Cellarius' men. For instance in this article about the Estonian island of Muhu, two Sonderführers, Kubitz and Horn, make an appearance http://www.saaremaa.ee/index.php?option ... Itemid=165

BarSeek
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Posts: 106
Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 08:52
Location: Käkisalmi

Re: Latokka

#21

Post by BarSeek » 08 Jun 2011, 22:47

If the information on the link ( http://www.uppslagsverket.fi/bin/view/U ... oCellarius ) is correct, there were three departments in Cellarius' organisation - intelligence ( I ), sabotage ( II ) and counter-intelligence ( III ). Since they mentioned in report " K.O.F. II " then they probably had to be saboteurs .

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