Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#16

Post by Juha Tompuri » 31 Aug 2011, 22:09

Slon-76 wrote:The adventurism of the command of allies always astonished!
Finns later sometimes wondered that too when Soviet Union was forced to the allied side.
Slon-76 wrote:To plan the crushing defeat of the 14th army (~57000 men, 200+ guns) by the forces of four battalions (or even 12 thousand with 50 guns) - this is magnificent!
Well... that was the time when the democrasies fought against the totalitarian states partnership.
Actually there also were some local units there, and also plans (that did materialize at late part of the war) of Swedish volunteers troops.

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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#17

Post by eppanzer » 01 Sep 2011, 11:34

Slon-76 wrote:
The adventurism of the command of allies always astonished! To plan the crushing defeat of the 14th army (~57000 men, 200+ guns) by the forces of four battalions (or even 12 thousand with 50 guns) - this is magnificent![/quote]

They would like to stop the soviet troops. West plans to bomb Baku was a bigger problem, but the biggest nightmare of Soviet regime was the possibility Germany and West could come to an agreement. And the nightmare consequent of this hypotetical agreement was not the war Germany-West vs. USSR, but the full International isoliation, when the powerful USSR might lost all strength in the International relationships.

After the 105 days of the respectful heroic fight Finland could not be saved by 10000 or 20000, or even 150000 (according to West plan) men. Were too late to send troops and the practical success of the expedition was very doubtful. And, Finland Government did not want to see West force in the Finland, Government understood this step would be made not only to protect Finland, but also to gain more self-interest goals. Soviet Union casualities were unthinkable big, but the Red Army was significantly stronger and decisively comparing by at begining the war. Finland Government looked for a way to finish a war. And Finland managed to finish the Winter War with a honour and the best possible result.


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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#18

Post by Slon-76 » 01 Sep 2011, 20:02

Juha Tompuri wrote: Finns later sometimes wondered that too when Soviet Union was forced to the allied side.
Taking into account circumstances, this exactly is not amazing.
Juha Tompuri wrote:Well... that was the time when the democrasies fought against the totalitarian states partnership. Actually there also were some local units there, and also plans (that did materialize at late part of the war) of Swedish volunteers troops.
I am badly familiar with the composition of the Finnish troops in Lapland, but I think that even taking into account Swedes they did not compensate the 45- thousandth difference in the people. I can believe, that the allies badly knew the composition of Soviet forces on the north. But I cannot believe, that the allies developed their plans without having an idea about the forces of Finnish army.
eppanzer wrote:They would like to stop the soviet troops. West plans to bomb Baku was a bigger problem, but the biggest nightmare of Soviet regime was the possibility Germany and West could come to an agreement. And the nightmare consequent of this hypotetical agreement was not the war Germany-West vs. USSR, but the full International isoliation, when the powerful USSR might lost all strength in the International relationships.

I speak precisely about the military adventurism. Political component is completely intelligible.
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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#19

Post by eppanzer » 01 Sep 2011, 20:51

Slon-76 wrote: I speak precisely about the military adventurism. Political component is completely intelligible.
Regards
1.The military is the tool of the international politic.
2. According to the West Allies plans the expeditionary force had to be about 150,000 strong.
3. Even 10000-12000 expeditionary force, accompanied by Fins, would be essencial for temporary strengthening of the defence of the Finland.
4. The number of soldiers was not so critical in the Winter War - soviet military combat actions were so badly...

Actually I believe the West plans were unrealistic both by military and politic aspects. The Red Army had enough strengh to occupy Finland before expeditionary force could come and to defeat the expeditionary force, later or sooner.

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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#20

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Sep 2011, 21:13

Slon-76 wrote:I am badly familiar with the composition of the Finnish troops in Lapland, but I think that even taking into account Swedes they did not compensate the 45- thousandth difference in the people.
There were several plans how to attack Petsamo, the original most probably coming from Finland:
Juha earlier wrote:Most detalled info I remember to have read about the issue, is from Jukka Nevakivi book Apu jota ei annettu, Länsivallat ja Suomen Talvisota 1939-1940" (Help not given, the Western Allies and the Finnish Winter War 1939-1940)
The same info might also be at one of the authors earlier book, also translated in English: The appeal that was never made: The Allies, Scandinavia and the Finnish Winter War, 1939-1940
There it's mentioned that the original idea most probably came from the Finnish side, then was bought by the French military command, approved by the Polish government in exile.
The British side finally didn't approve the idea, as they were more intrested in landing more south (= also taking the Swedish iron ore fields in to control)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1371228

According to the above mentioned Nevakivi book: "Apu jota ei annettu, Länsivallat ja Suomen Talvisota 1939-1940":

At the Finnish promemoria ( made by Col Aladár Paasonen, 24th Dec-39) there was mentioned that the force sent to help Finns should have some 300-400 aircrafts and 3-4 light divisions infantry, accustomed to the winter conditions.

At the French Gen Gamelin proposition, 31st Dec-39, the number of volunteers sent to Petsamo was mentioned as 30 000 - 40 000 men.

At the Admiral Darlan plan the intial striking force against Petsamo would have been 13 000 - 17 000 men strong followed with "volunteers" (couple of divisions).
Slon-76 wrote:I can believe, that the allies badly knew the composition of Soviet forces on the north.
Nevakivi mentions that at the French plans the Soviet forces North of Kandalaksha being estimated as four divisions strong

Slon-76 wrote:But I cannot believe, that the allies developed their plans without having an idea about the forces of Finnish army.
Most probably there was co-operation.
At many cases the French plans were based/identical on the Paasonen plan


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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#21

Post by John Hilly » 02 Sep 2011, 11:34

eppanzer wrote:The number of soldiers was not so critical in the Winter War - soviet military combat actions were so badly...
Actually Finland run out of men, so it was impossible to wait possible western troops. The most of those would have been stuck in Narvik-railroad anyhow! 8O :roll:

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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#22

Post by Vaeltaja » 02 Sep 2011, 11:42

Out of men? More like out of ammo.

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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#23

Post by John Hilly » 02 Sep 2011, 12:43

Vaeltaja wrote:Out of men? More like out of ammo.
Where were the badly needed infantry reserves on 13.3.1940, then???
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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#24

Post by JTV » 02 Sep 2011, 12:55

Vaeltaja wrote:Out of men? More like out of ammo.
Actually with broad strokes one could claim that there was more of a shortage of practically everything by end of the war. Only type of ammunition that was still plentiful was rifle/machinegun ammunition (due to very large pre-war stockpile), but with it there were sometimes problems of delivering ammunition to frontline. Antitank- and anti-aircraft gun ammunition supply was mostly from "hand to mouth", while there was clear shortage of mortar and artillery ammunition (mainly due to shortage of proper fuses, shortage of actual artillery shells was less severe), hand grenades, landmines etc. Shortage of tanks, aircraft, heavy weapons and small arms also being obvious, since it limited the possibilities of equipping troops mobilized for the war and equipping new units created during it. Even domestic submachinegun-ammunition manufacturing didn't yet keep up with spending either and arrival of imported ammunition took time, which resulted shortages at times.

To be exact there were men, but there were nowhere enough trained and equipped soldiers. For duration of the whole war Finnish Army was suffering from not having enough trained and equipped troops. This shortage caused a situation in which there were practically no reserves even in beginning of the war. This limited possibility of conducting offensive operations, counter-attacks etc. and forced troops to be often sent into battle piece-meal (sending individual company here and individual platoon there to keep the lines from being breached). However what is probably even more serious was, that it didn't allow the troops to have proper rotation between combat and rest - resulting to situation because of which in February - March Finnish frontline soldiers were so tired because lack of sleep, that they were often in constant danger of falling asleep unintentionally.

Jarkko

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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#25

Post by crolick » 08 Feb 2015, 20:55

First of all - sorry to dig out this topic after over 3 years :roll:
Second - please note that the article was not about Polish Army but Polish Navy.
Last but not least originally 3 graphics were include to this article (they were not printed finally):
Image
Image Image

Plus additional documents about Polish involvement in the Winter War (no Navy though):
http://pism.co.uk/PRM/prm16.pdf

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Re: Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

#26

Post by henryk » 08 Feb 2015, 21:20

True, the article was about the use of the Polish Navy. However that use is amply covered in the article. What interested me was the footnote-like reference to the use of the Polish Army in Finland. I hoped more information on this would be posted on the forum.
The document you referenced is what I was looking for. Thank you. I will be studying it.

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