Finnish war goals

[Wasa]

[Split from "Finnish swastikas & German equipment"]



I´m not trying to suggest that Finland was a Nazi country during the war, although one can question the finnish governments wargoals in the Continuation War.

[Hanski]

I´m not trying to suggest that Finland was a Nazi country during the war, although one can question the finnish governments wargoals in the Continuation War.

The war goals of Continuation War I referred to in viewtopic.php?t=50838&start=15 ,
but again -- those were the goals of Finland, not those of Adolf Hitler.

[Harri]

I´m not trying to suggest that Finland was a Nazi country during the war, although one can question the finnish governments wargoals in the Continuation War.

You are not, but still...?

[Wasa]

I´m not trying to suggest that Finland was a Nazi country during the war, although one can question the finnish governments wargoals in the Continuation War.

You are not, but still...?

But still questioning Finlands wargoals in the Continuation War. Hm..wonder if Mannerheim´s orders to the army is available on the net in english?..How do you feel about his orders to the troops?..IIRC he stated that the goal would be the liberation of East Karelia, provinces that didn´t belong to Finland before the Winter War...and never has..

[Wasa]

A summary of Mannerheim´s Order of the Day July10th 1941 at:
http://www.mannerheim.fi/10_ylip/e_mtuppi.htm

and even a facsimile of the original...for those who can read finnish..

[Harri]

You are not, but still...?

But still questioning Finlands wargoals in the Continuation War.

What wargoals?

Hm..wonder if Mannerheim´s orders to the army is available on the net in english?..How do you feel about his orders to the troops?..IIRC he stated that the goal would be the liberation of East Karelia, provinces that didn´t belong to Finland before the Winter War...and never has..

Of course it is available in English. It is another thing if the translation is quite accurate taking into account on all nuances of Finnish language.

You can misunderstood this order of the day unless you know about certain earlier happenings of history. Just reading the text and taking it out from the context without knowing the background misleads the original idea: referring to another one written in 1918. I have explained that background somewhere in this forum. Finnish Lt.Gen. W. Tuompo (who actually wrote major parts of most of the Mannerheim's later orders of the day) says clearly in his diaries that the order was misunderstood - especially by Swedish media. That happened weeks after the order of the day had been published.

That "liberation part" was directed to East Karelians to rise against Soviet occupiers. In the Dorpat peace agreement of 1920 Soviet-Russia had promised autonomy to East Karelia because Finns ceded large Finnish areas to Soviet-Russia (for example Repola and Porajärvi areas). That autonomy never came true.

[Wasa]

Historically Eastern Karelia never belonged to Sweden-Finland.

What wargoals? As expressed in Mannerheim´s Order of course.

[Wasa]

Harri: Perhaps you can help out and make a decent translation of the order then..
viewtopic.php?t=50961

[Harri]

Historically Eastern Karelia never belonged to Sweden-Finland.

So...?

What wargoals? As expressed in Mannerheim´s Order of course.

Are you suggesting that this order of the day contained Finnish "wargoals"? Many have thought so, and all of them have been wrong...

---

About translating Mannerheim's order of the day:
The reason why I can't do it is just the same I told earlier. Additionally my English skills are not good enough for accurate enough translation. But I can try tell/explain how certain words/sentences should be understood or how we Finns understand these. We must see what was behind the words.

We have to also know that Mannerheim's native language was Swedish and although his Finnish was very good in the 1940's it was not quite perfect. That is why he used Gen. Tuompo's assistance. Tuompo usually wrote several suggestions of which Mannerheim selected one and marked with corrections. Sometimes Mannerheim was too busy to change anything. In this case I think the original proposal is left and Mannerheim's hand written corrections are seen on it so we know rather accurately which originally comes from Tuompo and which from Mannerheim.

[Wasa]

Historically Eastern Karelia never belonged to Sweden-Finland.

So...?

What wargoals? As expressed in Mannerheim´s Order of course.

Are you suggesting that this order of the day contained Finnish "wargoals"? Many have thought so, and all of them have been wrong...

Yes...I still believe many think so, even finns...

[Hanski]

What wargoals? As expressed in Mannerheim´s Order of course.

Are you suggesting that this order of the day contained Finnish "wargoals"? Many have thought so, and all of them have been wrong...

Yes...I still believe many think so, even finns...

O.K., so now you've learned the war goals as stated in Mannerheim's Order of the Day:

Headquarters July 1941.

During the War for Liberation in 1918 I said to the Karelians of Finland and Viena, that I would not sheath my sword until Finland and East Karelia would be free. I swore this in the name of the Finnish peasant army, trusting its brave men and Finlands dauntless women.

For twenty three years have Viena and Aunus waited the fulfillment of this promise; for year and a half, after the glorious Winter War, the desolate Karelia of Finland has waited for the break of dawn.

Fighters of the War for Liberation, Winter War's famous men, my gallant soldiers! A new day is upon us. Karelia shall rise, among your ranks its own battalions are marching. The freedom of Karelia and a greater Finland gleams ahead of us in the rolling tide of worldhistorical events. May the Providence that guides the destinies of nations grant that the Finnish army may fulfill my promise to the Karelian tribe.

Soldiers! The ground, on which you shall step, is soaked by the blood and suffering of our kin, holy ground. Your victories shall liberate Karelia, your deeds will create for Finland a sublime, happy future.

Mannerheim

"your deeds will create for Finland a sublime, happy future"

So, the order about this goal is just about to be fulfilled, don't you think!?

--------------

More seriously -- has anyone done research in Sweden, how and why Count von Rosen came to pick just the swastika as his good luck sign?

Hanski

[Harri]

Maybe the confusing thing is that many forgot that there were "Karelia" also in Finland. Many Russians for example think they only have Karelia although that is not true (we even have two provinces in Finland called South and North Karelia).

Another unknown thing is what was promised in 1918? It was promised that Finland helps Karelians to achieve independence. That promise was partly fullfilled when a kind of autonomy was granted to East Karelia in 1920 (Dorpat peace agreement) - too bad it never realized in practice.

I think like Gen. Tuompo that this order of the day was mostly misunderstood abroads - on purpose or accidentally?

[Karri]

Historically Eastern Karelia never belonged to Sweden-Finland.

What wargoals? As expressed in Mannerheim´s Order of course.

Historically it didn't belong to Russia either, until they conquered it.
I have read quite many times that east-karelia was 'conquered' for three purposes:
1. Shorter front line
2. It could be used in the future peace negotiations
3. Because of the finno-ugric people living there...

[Harri]

Parts of so called "East Karelia" were historically Finnish areas (for example large Porajärvi and Repola areas I mentioned earlier). In 1938/39 negotiations with USSR Stalin would have given these areas to Finland if parts of Karelian Isthmus and certain other areas (mainly islands) had been given to USSR. Finns refused so they took it (and about 200% more ) by force. The whole area around St.Petersburg was inhabited by the Finns (they are nowadays called Ingrians or Ingrian Finns). Most places there still have historical Finnish names for example.

"Ethnical states" are not so old "invention". "In good old days" bigger and more powerful countries used to conquer smaller and weaker nations if they needed more land or riches. Even today borders are drawn by force although they should be agreed mutually. The latter one is the more modern way. League of Nations and United Nations are not to blame on not so good results because they are just organizations. Countries (governments) do the decisions, not any organzation.

As I see it the words in Mannerheim´s Orders clearly was coloured by the Nationalistic winds blowing in the country at the time. Not only Mannerheim expressed that Itä-Karjala ought to belong to Finland, even the Finnish ambassador in Berlin, Kivimäki answered Hermann Göring on June 24th on the goals in the war: "East-Karelia and Kuola"

When the new war had just started "nationalistic colours" used are nothing special. If there hadn't been such it would be even more strange. East-Karelia and Kuola are just areas, they are not goals in the war. Goals in the war are things like secure borders etc.

Kivimäki was a known pro-German in Finland. That is why he was our embassador in Germany. He certainly had also personal wishes and goals. Do you have any more such "proves"? So far we have not seen anything new.

[Wasa]

Hehe...never intended to produce anything "new", just trying to understand the meaning of Mannerheim´s Order of the Day, or put it in it´s context.