Finnish war goals

[Seppo Jyrkinen]

Finnish war goals got guidelines during and after Winter War and the main goal was to survive. Finns assumed that after the World War there would be a Versailles-like conference and bigger countries would make decisions also from Finland's future.

Winter War also made very clear, that
a) Finland wouldn't survive alone and
b) western countries didn't really care or even were ready damage Finland in the name of their own interest.

So, when Germany at 1940 changed her attitude towards Finland, Finns accepted this with relief. Russian pressure towards Finland was a great help to Germany.

In the middle of Maj 1941 Germany asked about Finland's "border problems", but Finnish government didn't had anything ready. A committee failed and General Airo made 5 different plans depending on that, how the war would end. Government's base goal was 1939 borders, but Finns were ready to accept also some alternatives between 1939 and 1940 borders. Kivimäki didn't told the utmost eastern versions to Germans at all and later (obviously disappointed) Göring obtruded Kola peninsula to Finland.

When Karelia was joined back to Finland in December 1941, East Karelia's position was left open. Several Finnish leaders told public that they wanted East Karelia, but after the war, through referendum. This referendum is the reason why Mannerheim gave an order to treat East-Karelians as Finnish own citizen and only Russians as enemy citizens. And why a school system was build in East-Karelia (nearly 10.000 pupils at 1944), what occupiers usually won't do. Background for this is very much, that Finns and Bolsheviks had agreed 20 years earlier in Tartto, that East-Karelians would vote for their future.

How about secret goals? Conspiracy!

A small county's future depends on the future of the bigger one. There was three ways that the World War could end.

- Possibility 1: Germany wins the war. If Finnish government believed this, there was no need to hide anything. Opinions in USA and Brittany were worthless, if Germany would control "whole" Europe. This was probably most common opinion in Finland, even if Finnish (anglophile) leaders didn't like it at all. "Bad for Finland".
- Possibility 2: Germany loses the war. If Finnish government believed this, there was no need to make any kind of goals except to survive. And take as little losses as possible.
- Possibility 3: Germany wins Soviet Union and after that western power would win Germany. This was probably the best result of the war, a wet dream. But it was not realistic any kind of in the summer 1941. Not at that time, when Finland had to make decisions about relations to Germany and to Barbarossa. USA had not joined the war and Brittany had been thrown out of continent just one year earlier (Dunkerque).

Finnish army's warfare gives also a hint. At Karelian nest, on the gates of Leningrad, Finns made end with the war in the beginning of September. Offensives at river Svir ended in the end of October. North of Ääninen the war activities stopped at the beginning of December. During the year 1941 most Finnish army divisions had active warfare no more than 1-2 months. This tells, that Finns were not very keen to have a war and this helps to estimate goals which must have been very limited. As Buschenhagen had reported to German HQ already before the Barbarossa.

Germans did try to get Finns to fight more. At August Keitel send a letter to Mannerheim asking him to go on towards Leningrad but Mannerheim (with Ryti) refused. Soon after that general Ehrfurth made a second trial which too failed. This must have been very humiliating to OKW and General Keitel, who had conquered half of the Europe, but was not able to get a very small non-aryan folk to respect his will.

[Philip S. Walker]

@Vaeltja

Ryti believed in liberal (Keynes) trade. He opposed socialism and national socialism both.

Which basically means he didn't like wealth distribution but preferred to take from the poor and give to the rich. Very British, and the very reason that the western world has now once again landed in the same stupid mess as many times before.

Again, there are several books written of Mannerheim, even in English. Try reading even one of them before starting of baseless claims.

I was 16 when I stopped believing in "great men" and particularly in their biographers.

German officer? That is quite a bold claim. His highest German rank was platoon leader.

Platoon leader is not a rank. As I said, Heinrichs was an officer in the German army, to which he had sworn allegiance. He received the Iron Cross on 10 April 1917. He was also a tutor at a German military academy. To call him "anti-German", as you to, is absurd.

While Witting was pro-German i haven't seen any claims that he would have been any way affiliated with Fascists or Nazis. Again, get your facts right before you for a stampede

At this point in time, being pro-German was being pro-Nazi. Try living in the real world for a change. But at least you now admit the man was pro-German.

J W Rangell: Who was also the man who blocked Himlers attempts to prosecute Finnish Jews.

That is hardly enough in itself to label a person politically competent.

Tanner ... Whose presence until the end war kept the peace opposition as a marginal group...

In the autumn of 1940 the Soviets tried to get Tanner out of the Finnish cabinet, which he very willingly went along with. He then retorted to some administrative work.

Being a minister does not require one to be proficient in politics in any regard.

Obviously not in Finland at this time.

In other words you have nothing to base your claims on to. Only wild guesses based on pre-existing opinions.

There's nothing wild about my "guesses". If you want to criticize them you might call them too obvious and predictable, but hardly "wild". What is wild is your endless attempts to ague against some very sober and logical thinking. Which is fine to a certain extent, but you have long exceeded what is statistically possible and entered a coo-coo land approximating holocaust denial, unless Finland is in some parallel universe where up is down, false is true and so on.

IKL's fashioned themselves after a Finnish religious sect.

Lovely fellows. Of course, they were given a ministerial position, too.

I'm assuming you are referring to 'True Finns'.

I only read bout them in Danish, where they are called "rigtige finner", in English "real Finns". If "true Finns" is a more correct name for them in English, it would be "sande finner" in Danish. You can call the party main office and tell them that from me.

I am not their supporter and i very much doubt that i would ever become one. I do however consider them - even though IMO they are bigots - a fresh breath into the stagnation of the Finnish politics.

If you guys followed Ryti's example and employed a lot of totally inexperienced and incompetent people as ministers, you might get even more political entertainment. If you throw in a couple of generals and some closet Nazis you might even provoke another war where you can invade Russia on the back some Fascist super power and dress it up as self-defense.

Regards, Vely

[Vaeltaja]

Platoon leader is not a rank.

His rank was oberzugführer (thanks to Pfadfinder course) which as it happens translates to 'over' platoon leader (essentially the oldest platoon leader in a company). Pretty much equal to company quartermaster. So again, please check your facts.

At this point in time, being pro-German was being pro-Nazi. Try living in the real world for a change. But at least you now admit the man was pro-German.

There was still difference in being pro-German and a Nazi. I'm saddened to see that you can not see the difference.

In the autumn of 1940 the Soviets tried to get Tanner out of the Finnish cabinet, which he very willingly went along with. He then retorted to some administrative work.

'Some' admistrative work would equal minister of industry and trade...

Being a minister does not require one to be proficient in politics in any regard.

Obviously not in Finland at this time.

You are confusing political parties (ie. parlamentarism) with actual governing. There is no requirement for the ministers to be affiliated in politics nor is there any demand for them to be proficient it.

...totally inexperienced and incompetent...

Walden had previous experience as a 'professional minister' (unaffiliated) from two cabinets. Wittig had experience as a minister from two different cabinets. Tanner had previous experience as a minister. Ragnell was a first timer as a minister. Ryti had experience from being a prime minister from two cabinets. So almost all the ministers you nominated had previous experience in government which clearly shows you had no idea what you were talking about.

...more political entertainment...

You get me totally wrong as usual. True Finns were welcome since 'the three big' Finnish parties (Social Democrats (left), National Coalition (right), Centre (farmers)) all had become pretty much the same grey goo without any truly outstanding differences. In essence it did not appear which you voted since they all acted in same way in wide variety of issues. With 'True Finns' arrival the old parties needed to 'get to their roots' so speak and find their identity to actually stand out from each other. Hence I see the 'True Finns' arrival to the scene as welcome change.

[Philip S. Walker]

@Vaeltaja

His rank was oberzugführer (thanks to Pfadfinder course) which as it happens translates to 'over' platoon leader (essentially the oldest platoon leader in a company). Pretty much equal to company quartermaster. So again, please check your facts.

I don't have to, I've been a NATO soldier. There is no such English rank as "platoon leader", and according to the rules here the language is English. Clearly, the man was an officer in the German army, and that was the point I was making.

Incidentally, have you asked yourself why you like these irrelevant digressions so much?

There was still difference in being pro-German and a Nazi. I'm saddened to see that you can not see the difference.

That's because I'm stupid and I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about. How many times do I have to tell you?

'Some' admistrative work would equal minister of industry and trade...

That was the post he left for the office desk.

You are confusing political parties (ie. parlamentarism) with actual governing. There is no requirement for the ministers to be affiliated in politics nor is there any demand for them to be proficient it.

Again, I never said there was, and I'm not confusing anything. Though it can happen, it is highly unusual in a parliamentary system (including Finland) to have ministers that are not members of parliament, not to mention without any political affiliations whatsoever. Here we have a whole gathering of them in a severe and extremely difficult political situation. Not good.

Walden had previous experience as a 'professional minister' (unaffiliated) from two cabinets. Wittig had experience as a minister from two different cabinets. Tanner had previous experience as a minister. Ragnell was a first timer as a minister. Ryti had experience from being a prime minister from two cabinets. So almost all the ministers you nominated had previous experience in government.

We have six people gathered here around Ryti to solve Finland's extremely difficult political problems, and four of them are without party political background. Crazy.

which clearly shows you had no idea what you were talking about.

You must have found that out long ago. So why do you keep discussing with someone who is obviously so ignorant? Who is it you need so badly to convince? Have you tried looking in a mirror?

You get me totally wrong as usual. True Finns were welcome since 'the three big' Finnish parties (Social Democrats (left), National Coalition (right), Centre (farmers)) all had become pretty much the same grey goo without any truly outstanding differences. In essence it did not appear which you voted since they all acted in same way in wide variety of issues. With 'True Finns' arrival the old parties needed to 'get to their roots' so speak and find their identity to actually stand out from each other. Hence I see the 'True Finns' arrival to the scene as welcome change.

Reminds me of standing in the freezing cold on Mannerheimtie in October 1983 with Otto Donner, who was declaring he was now going to run for parliament. Some crazy black guy that Jim P. had masterfully dumped on me (they only came out at night in Helsinki) was jumping around us yelling with joy that now there was finally SOMETHING happening in Finland, since Otto was going to be in politics!

Prior to that: in some nearby cafe, a half hour lecture from Otto on how Wigwam never made it internationally because the English don't give a damn about poor little Finland.

Rain or snow, light or dark
Life goes on down in Mine-shaft Park
And you can take it easy, or take it hard
Movin' down the Esplanade
In those everlovin' Helsinki nights.

Regards Vely

[Juha Tompuri]

Despite of several requests to stay on topic, this thread at least by now seems to have now derailed far enough from it's original idea, that it's time to lock it .
At least for a while.

/Juha