German and Soviet AF attacks early Barbarossa

[Harri]

Hei!
My first post here.

Welcome to the forum Kari!

I do have the KGr 506 War diary for 1941 in microfilm (NARA) form. It seems the unit did not participate at all in any of the Leningrad area attacks Summer 1941!
KGr 506 was based at Westerland for Summer 1941 and were transferred in Autumn to Riga and later to Pärnu (Pernau) for operations over the Estonian islands. IIRC KGr 506 planes bombed Hanko few times, but all this was in September - October 1941. They went back to Germany after the operation was over.
It is also interesting that in the KTB there is no mention about any of KGr 506 planes visiting Finland. Yet there is photo of one Ju 88 with KGr 506 code in for example the Keskinen & Stenman Luftwaffe in Finland -book.

I think you confuse Küstenfliegergruppe 506 (Kü.Fl.Gr.506), Kampfgruppe 508 (KGr.508) with KGr.506?

Possibly KG 1, KG 76, KG 77 or Kü.Fl.Gr. 506 of I Fliegerkorps (Commander Generalleutnant Helmuth Förster) operated on this direction. On the Finnish direction was initially also KGr.806. The first German attack through the Finnish territory were carried out by Kampfgruppe 806 reinforced with four planes of Kette 1.Staffel / Küstenfliegergruppe 506 (Ke.1./Kü.Fl.Gr.506).

From my site:

Between June 1941 and 27.10.1941 most German planes of Luftflotte 1 operating in Southern Finland had been subordinated to Fliegerführer Ostsee (Fl.Fü.Ostsee) (Oberstleutnant / Oberst (1.8.41) Wolfgang von Wild) at first in Swinemünde, later in Riga and Tallinn. Its flying units were initially:
* Kampfgruppe 806 (KGr.806) (Gr.Kdeur until 28.6.41 Major Emig, KIA)
* Aufklärungsgruppe 125 (Aufkl.Gr.125)

This information is mostly based on Prof. Mauno Jokipii's and Hannu Valtonen's books.

For those who like to dig in archives (Sota-arkisto) I think Lentokenttähuoltokomppania (Air field supply company) and such documents could give some answers (or more questions) on the topic of Luftwaffe attacks. Also Anti-Aircraft artillery units. For example at Utti was based 84. Kev.It.Jaos and their war diary mention the German Ju 88 refuelling in couple of times (but IIRC not reaarming, should check that one). One of the planes overturned, this is the well known case (there are photos of the wreck).

I agree. Also the diaries of air surveillance units (or their IPAKs, regional centres) might be worth reading.

[kari lumppio]

Hi!

I think you confuse Küstenfliegergruppe 506 (Kü.Fl.Gr.506), Kampfgruppe 508 (KGr.508) with KGr.506?

There is absolutely no confusion here.

Possibly KG 1, KG 76, KG 77 or Kü.Fl.Gr. 506 of I Fliegerkorps (Commander Generalleutnant Helmuth Förster) operated on this direction. On the Finnish direction was initially also KGr.806. The first German attack through the Finnish territory were carried out by Kampfgruppe 806 reinforced with four planes of Kette 1.Staffel / Küstenfliegergruppe 506 (Ke.1./Kü.Fl.Gr.506).

This detail was exactly what I expected to find more information about. There is no mention of any operations other than from Westerland during the Summer 1941. This was surprise to me too. It is though possible that aircraft wearing KGr 506 markings was used. But there was no mention of personnell transfers either. The war diary lists in detail all the missions for given day and include crew (usually commander = observer) name and plane code.

I wonder where Valtonen got his information about the KGr 506 kette, perhaps from photos?

I agree. Also the diaries of air surveillance units (or their IPAKs, regional centres) might be worth reading.

I have not found any material earlier than 1942 from air surveillance units. 7. Ilmavalvontakomppania (Helsinki) logs are goldmine but start from 1943, 8. Iv.K logs start early 1942. I hope the 1941 material is somewhere but have not been looking for them too hard as my primary interest is in year 1944. The IVAK / IvK material is unorganized and some of it looked like no-one has used them since they were sent to the archive.

Cheers,
Kari

[Harri]

I think you confuse Küstenfliegergruppe 506 (Kü.Fl.Gr.506), Kampfgruppe 508 (KGr.508) with KGr.506?

There is absolutely no confusion here.

You are right, my mistake. Kü.Fl.Gr.506 became KGr.506 on 19.10.1941. We are talking about the same unit. Only this one kette is mentioned before September 1941.

http://www.ww2.dk/air/seefl/kflgr506.htm

Possibly KG 1, KG 76, KG 77 or Kü.Fl.Gr. 506 of I Fliegerkorps (Commander Generalleutnant Helmuth Förster) operated on this direction. On the Finnish direction was initially also KGr.806. The first German attack through the Finnish territory were carried out by Kampfgruppe 806 reinforced with four planes of Kette 1.Staffel / Küstenfliegergruppe 506 (Ke.1./Kü.Fl.Gr.506).

This detail was exactly what I expected to find more information about. There is no mention of any operations other than from Westerland during the Summer 1941. This was surprise to me too. It is though possible that aircraft wearing KGr 506 markings was used. But there was no mention of personnell transfers either. The war diary lists in detail all the missions for given day and include crew (usually commander = observer) name and plane code.

That's very strange indeed. It seems that this mysterious kette must have been from some other unit then?

I wonder where Valtonen got his information about the KGr 506 kette, perhaps from photos?

Perhaps. But I think this has been earlier in Jokipii's book "The Birth of the Continuation War". It is possible that Jokipii is Valtonen's source in this case. Someone has made a mistake or then someone has relied too much on "photo evidences"?

Anyway the number of planes in the very first attack was probably 18 (Gruppe 14 + a mystery Kette 4). There was also "a second batch" of about 50 bombers some time later. All these landed at Utti on 22.6.

Can someone say someting about the bombs Germans used in their first attacks? Has someone "sucked" or can BM 1000 bombs be used as naval mines like is said in the book by Jopkipii? I think Soviets had such "multi-purpose bombs" but what about Germans? Or is the term"mine-bomb" misled the author?

----

There are also another interesting things or oddities concerning to KGr.806:

http://www.ww2.dk/air/seefl/kflgr806.htm

An Ergänzungsstaffel possibly existed from 5.41, but details are lacking.
...
4.6.41 - 8.41 Prowehren*** Fl. Fü. Ostsee Ju 88A
8.41 - 27.10.41 Riga Fl. Fü. Ostsee Ju 88A

*** 1./806 was detached to Märvi (Finland), 22.6.41 - 7.41.

Where the hell is "Märvi"? This must be Malmi?

So here we are. Could the mystery kette be from KGr.806, actually from its Ergänzungsstaffel?

I agree. Also the diaries of air surveillance units (or their IPAKs, regional centres) might be worth reading.

I have not found any material earlier than 1942 from air surveillance units. 7. Ilmavalvontakomppania (Helsinki) logs are goldmine but start from 1943, 8. Iv.K logs start early 1942. I hope the 1941 material is somewhere but have not been looking for them too hard as my primary interest is in year 1944. The IVAK / IvK material is unorganized and some of it looked like no-one has used them since they were sent to the archive.

Perhaps the most authentic war diaries might be of the German land personnel unit which was at Utti on 22.6.1941. What that unit might have been? From the Luftflotte 1, I. Fliegerkorps or from KGr.806?

[Juha Tompuri]

Hei!

My first post here.

Welcome

at Utti was based 84. Kev.It.Jaos and their war diary mention the German Ju 88 refuelling in couple of times (but IIRC not reaarming, should check that one). One of the planes overturned, this is the well known case (there are photos of the wreck).

My grandfather was there too.

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi Juha

I can not agree with your post

That's OK, but then you also state that Finnish Colonel (retired) Ahti Lappi writes untrue things at his book Ilmatorjunta Ilmasodasa 1794-1945 (Air defence at aerial warfare...)

they have such "radars" but in the 1941 the first instalation were around Moscow and second around Leningard (less).

According Ahti Lappi:
9 radars of type RUS-1 and RUS-2 at Moscow on 22th June 1941, one more July same year ( type Porfir)

At Leningrad same time 8 RUS-1, 9 RUS-2 (one of them at Kronstadt) and one of type Strelets.

In the Murmansk area I think the radar were instaled after 1942 (I think that it was in 1943, and this was British not Soviet sets).

Ahti Lappi: 1941 USSR had a RUS-2 at Murmansk

Finns had also very effective nets of land observing post/radio intelligence developed during 1943/44, which let them to achived superriority over Soviet air power having much smaller onw air force. There were not radars in FAF units.

We did what we could.
From April 1943 on Finnish AAA units received first radars of type Freya and Würzburg Dora.

Regards, Juha

[mirekw]

Hi
Juha
Thanks for the next correction.
If going to radar sets near Murmansk, having read for many years (more then 6) materials written by Yuryj Rybin - (he is the top Russian resarcher about the North, we also in some kind co-operate in our works), he never mentioned about any special effect, influence or use the RUS-s in the defence of Murmansk in 1941. Later in 1942/43,. yes of course there were such instalation.
If the Sovite did have fully operated own radars on June 1941 in these areas (Moscow, Leningrad, Murmansk), there were not so many losses after German air attack.

There is printed in Soviet-Russia (70-ties) nice book about this RUS-experiment, (I have read it 3-4 yeras ago). There are not so optimistic data about effectivnes of this RUS, written by one who worked by this instalation. Great pruges (1937-38) had great inpact on the break in this searches in Soviet.

Events of 1941 air battles over Moscow, Leningrad, Murmansk are presenting rather very weak (with big gap), lack of right co-ordiation, low effectivnes of Sovet POV defence system. The A/A defence was very strong indeed, by air effectivens not so and the Luftwaffe did not have enough own air power to be in one time evertywhere.

So, In my opinion there are rather exaggarated view on this RUS-1, RUS-2.

The same caes is with the Soviet "flying fortress" - TB-7 later Pe-8. When you read one of Suvorov/s book, from it this heavy boober looks very, very dangeorus for the enemy on 1939-41. The flying monster, which could make terror attacks on enemy towns. One of which had also crashed on Finnish soil after flight over Berlin in VIII 1941.
When you get to know more detail from other sources then Suvorov, this plane was more dangerous for own crews up to the end of 1941 and later for the enemy.

Soviet-Russian propaganda machine, which very well worked for 45 years (1945-1990), had created very idealistic and perfect picture of Soviet effectivens weapons. Soviet had the best weapon all over the world.

OK many still want to belive this up to now. I look at the effectivens of it, which is different if you check with oposite side .
Second if this weapon was so good/smart and effective and the Soviet soldiers were so effective and breave (which many if fact were), why they did sustain such terrible losses achiven by smaller enemy, which very often had much older weapons then Soviets had.

The case of war versus Finland (1941-44) is one of examples of this. If on the Soviet side all were so perfect and effective, ect. Russian should captured Helsinki in about 2 weeks in November 1939, or did it the same in June 1941.

My scepticism about quality/effectivens of Soviet weapons is according cross-checked both side and looking at the output of air combat, which is far, far away from both side propaganda matters and post war politics.

Regards,
Mirek W

PS
So, Soviet could have on Murmansk RUS-1 or RUS-2 but did not use them effectivly, Quite small Luftwaffe fighetr unit (later - 1942 - 6./JG 5) had achived air superiority from the June 1941 up to the 1 part of 1943. Second Soviet could not prevent from painfull destraction own navy power and the whole harbour from German air attack up to the 1-st part of 1942.

It is surprised that Finns did get in April 1943 radars of type Freya and Würzburg Dora.
They were oeprated by Finns or by German (who supported Finnish A/A system),
Second where they were used?

[Harri]

It is surprised that Finns did get in April 1943 radars of type Freya and Würzburg Dora. They were oeprated by Finns or by German (who supported Finnish A/A system),Second where they were used?

Take a look from my site:

http://www.geocities.com/finnmilpge/fmp_fafradars.html

[Juha Tompuri]

Harri,

Two more Freya ("Raija") radars were received on 25.6. and in July 1944. The first one located at Koria for 2nd Company was a second-hand set from the suspended German radar station at Olonets.

AFAIK the location of that radar itself was at Töröstinmäki, Kouvola.


Mirek,

Here some scans (first might be a bit exaggerative) from magazine
Militärtechnik
Theorie - Praxis - Informationen 5/82

Regards, Juha

[Harri]

Two more Freya ("Raija") radars were received on 25.6. and in July 1944. The first one located at Koria for 2nd Company was a second-hand set from the suspended German radar station at Olonets.

AFAIK the location of that radar itself was at Töröstinmäki, Kouvola.

Interesting. It seems I can't anymore trust on my sources at all... But I think the command place of 2nd Company was at Koria. I have too read from some book that the radar indeed would have been at Kouvola. Do you know if this radar had more than one positions on the surrounding area?

Are you sure that the place you mentioned belonged to Kouvola in 1944? Anyway Koria belongs nowadays to Elimäki IIRC, but has it ever been an independent rural district (or is it just a village and a formed garrison)?

[Hanski]

One of the previously mentioned Telefunken Fu.S.E. 62 Würzburg-Dora radars currently on display at the Central Finland Aviation Museum in Tikkakoski.

[Juha Tompuri]

I think the command place of 2nd Company was at Koria.

I have thought that possibility too.
There has to be some explanation why Ahti Lappi too wrote at his book that the radar had been at Koria.

I have too read from some book that the radar indeed would have been at Kouvola. Do you know if this radar had more than one positions on the surrounding area?

AFAIK it only was at one place, at the top of that hill. I've never visited the actual place, but I've heard that the (concrete?) radar mount base is still there.

Are you sure that the place you mentioned belonged to Kouvola in 1944? Anyway Koria belongs nowadays to Elimäki IIRC, but has it ever been an independent rural district (or is it just a village and a formed garrison)?

I'm pretty sure that that hill has belonged to Kouvola since "birth" of Kouvola from Valkeala municipality.
Koria has never been independent, it has grown from a village to one of (if not the) population centers of Elimäki municipality.

http://www.karttatiimi.com/elimaki/map. ... stinm%E4ki

Regards, Juha

P.S. Hanski, thanks for the photo

[patrik.possi]

One thing ill wonder is have long time did it take for a large scale soviet bombing offensive like the one the 25th of june to take prepar.
Knowing from the bigger 1944 bombing offensive that they needed 10 days between there raids makes me wonder when the actually decision was made?

On the 24th? 23 or as early as the morning of the 22nd of June?

[John T]

One thing ill wonder is have long time did it take for a large scale soviet bombing offensive like the one the 25th of june to take prepar.
Knowing from the bigger 1944 bombing offensive that they needed 10 days between there raids makes me wonder when the actually decision was made?

On the 24th? 23 or as early as the morning of the 22nd of June?

Bomber units in their peacetime operating area should have had the planning done, at least for such enemy targets as peace time airfields.
So I say between 4 - 36 hours to wait for light conditions and make maximum number of planes operationaly ready.


Cheers
/John T

[John T]

Hi
Already on the 18-19 June 1941 did Finnish airforce paint their aircrafts in the German "barbarossa" IFF paint scheme with yellow wingtips etc..

For those who read Swedish :
( http://f16.parsimony.net/forum28824/messages/25908.htm)

Cheers
/John T.

[Harri]

Already on the 18-19 June 1941 did Finnish airforce paint their aircrafts in the German "barbarossa" IFF paint scheme with yellow wingtips etc.

I wonder what this actually has to do with the military actions between 22. - 25.7.1941?

In reality the order to paint recognition "friendly plane markings" (as they were called) was given on 18.6.1941 (about at the same time when Finnish Army started its main mobilisation). Markings were to be painted "by 22.6.1941". They were not necessarily painted on 18. - 19.6.

Bomber units in their peacetime operating area should have had the planning done, at least for such enemy targets as peace time airfields.
So I say between 4 - 36 hours to wait for light conditions and make maximum number of planes operationaly ready.

Light conditions in Finland are the best possible at Midsummer because sun doesn't set down during nights. In southern Finland night lasts only a few hours around midnight. In the north there is no night at all but in the south there is a short darker period. Since 2 or 3 am there are almost day conditions if it is clear and shiny.

I doubt peace time units could do any operational attacks against the enemy targets within 4 hours. It is claimed that certain Soviet air units would have been fully alerted and combat ready already at night on 21./22.6. which would explain the very fast initial operations.

Also without careful and ready plans and reconnaissance that kind of operations wouldn't have been possible. Soviet reconnaissance became considerable more difficult after Finnish mobilisation (when air surveillance and AA units were formed and stationed), so it had to be done mostly before that.