Something that has repeated bugged me when reading through various descriptions from the Soviet side is that there are couple of mentions of events that i cant link with stuff mentioned in Finnish war diaries or elsewhere. Namely the stated capture of Novyi Beloostrov - in Finnish Valkeasaaren asema (lit. Beloostrov station) - by Finns on 4 September and its recapture by Soviets on 5 September.
What i have understood is that Finns captured Staryi Belootrov (fi. Valkeasaari) on that day (4 September) and that the subsequent Soviet counterattact from Merituittu direction - though it reached the center of village - failed to push Finns out of it. On N. Beloostrov's direction i seem to be meeting more static than anything else. There is mention of troops reaching the stream running along the northern edge of the N. Beloostrov but not venturing into the village itself.
And yes i am aware of the capture of N. Beloostrov on 10 September and fighting related to it - though even with it some sources seemed to indicate that Finns found the village to be largely undefended and just moved in rather than anything else.
Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
As follows from the casualty lists the 1025 Rifle Regiment of the 291 Rifle Division was engaged in a serious action on 4-5 September 1941, suffering heavy losses in the process. Most were lost at St.Beloostov, but several men at Nov.Beloostrov as well. Information from the documents of the 23 Army staff is contradictory somewhat, as I've already said.
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Thank you Art once again.
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Hi all! On 20-23.9.1941 Red Army unsuccessfully tried to destroy "Bunkkeri" strongpoint in the Valkeasaari-Aleksandrovka sector. Is this fight described anywhere? Thanks in advance.
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Assuming i guess what you mean then the war diaries of JR46 and JR47 as well as that of 12.D are what you are after. Soviet attack on 20 September coincided with the Finnish change of front line regiment so the information is spread out in both JR46 and JR47 war diaries.
JR46: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3472813
JR47: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3474420
12.D: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3494921 (hand-written)
JR46: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3472813
JR47: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3474420
12.D: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3494921 (hand-written)
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Thank you very much, Vaeltaja !
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Thank you, Mangrove Are there any maps with JR6 positions near Alrksandrovka?
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
1:100 000 map showing the coordinatesSwing wrote:Are there any maps with JR6 positions near Alrksandrovka?
The positions of I/JR 6 on 17 September 1941
The positions of II/JR 6 on 17 September 1941
The positions of III/JR 6 between 5-8 September and 17 September 1941 onwards
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Here is a memoir by a Finnish NCO, to some extent connected to the topic. You may want to skip the human interest section. The translator (=I) has not included the Russian names of the places.
We crossed the national border
Erkki Holkeri
Journal "Kansa taisteli" vol 9, 1972
The troops of 18D. reached Rajajoki river at the Joutselkä-Mainila road in the afternoon of 31 Aug 1941 - which means the old national border. The very first tentative attempts to reconnoitre proved that the enemy had strongly occupied and fortified the riversides on Muolaa side at least near the main road. That is why the offensive was stopped for a couple of days to enable intensive reconnoitring to find out the weakest point in the enemy defences. The troops that had attacked East of Joutselkä a little later continued their advance passing Mainila from the East, reaching the Mainila-Valkeasaari road on 2 Sept 1941 at Uusi Alakylä. Enemy defending Mainila was now under a threat of being surrounded, because the only direction they could retreat to was the swampy area between Rajajoki river and the main road to Valkeasaari to the direction of Aleksandrovka. Yet the enemy troops held their positions, including those at Rajajoki, until afternoon of 2nd Sept. Then they began to retreat, having blown up the bridge of Rajajoki river.
Our attempts to approach Rajajoki in the direction of the main road were in vain and resulting in casualties. There was an enemy bunker near the bridge with an excellent view and field of fire to control and harass all action on our side. But in the afternoon 2 Sept , after we had heard sounds of heavy fighting in the direction of Mainila-Valkeasaari road , the enemy began to blow up works in their stronghold near the bridge. They also ended the efficient harassment fire over Rajajoki river. It was then as a Finnish patrol - including the author of this account - was sent to check the situation on the other side of the river. The patrol could wade the river unhindered. The above mentioned bunker was unoccupied. But a lot of material had been left behind. There were weapons, ammo, even brand new underwear. Our patrol washed themselves up in Rajajoki and put on a fresh set of underwear.
Not until night of 2 Sept we received orders to leave our positions on the W side of Rajajoki and join our own units that were marching East of Mainila over a pontoon bridge across Rajajoki. These second and third wave troops did not have any hurry because the enemy resisted hard in the direction of Uusi Alakylä - Valkeasaari road. Our troops advanced only very slowly. When it was decided to avoid the high ground and direct the offensive through the large swampy areas at Öljymäki hill and Uusi Alakylä, all heavy weapons and transports had to stay overnight in the area Mainila-Öljymäki. During the night the Sapper patrols found and marked some kind of a road through the morass. to Aleksandrovka. Then the troops could proceed, including the horse drawn AT gun Company 14.Coy/JR6 - the unit of the author.
It seems that the enemy did not consider it likely that Finns would cross Rajajoki river. This is implied by the fact that many enemy units appeared to have abandoned their positions in disorder. They also often had disengaged too late. This had been the fate of an horse drawn battery - or artillery battalion - that had been surprised by our troops. The enemy had been subjected to intense firing so sudden and effective that the horse teams had not been able to scatter, but they had fallen left and right in perfect order. The drivers, too, had shared the fate of their horses, with their rifles in their backs. Also in Aleksandrovka the Red Army had left in a tremendous hurry. The local civilian population was almost totally left behind, unevacuated. (Maybe that was planned, who knows.) Hurry, disorder and civilians left behind may have been the reason why the enemy artillery fire that punished us in the direction of Mainila - Aleksandrovka road, was less intense and efficient in Aleksandrovka, initially.
14.K arrived at the barracks of Aleksandrovka and immediately the author and his AT gun team were ordered to take positions among two dilapidated small houses a little E of the church. Hauling the AT gun on a paved road that was well under enemy observation seemed rash to us. The enemy held a high point one kilometer off, and there was a mighty bunker on its slope with its embrasure pointing right to Aleksandrovka. But there was no choice: except the roads the local terrain was swampy morass with a huge number of water filled ditches. We used the paved road even though we felt we were asking the enemy to be shot at. Yet it seems the enemy had not yet organized their defence because we reached our target without any incidents.
The said hill was soon named Munakukkula (Egg hill) and the bunker on its side Ristibunkkeri (Cross bunker). The terrain of Munakukkula was finally left to the enemy after initial skirmishing, and that caused us a huge number of casualties during the trench war phase. This is deplorable since it is known that one Finnish unit of KevOs7 had managed to make their way to Munakukkula hill and even beyond. but due to some bungling had to retreat.
Contacts with Soviet citizens
We were digging our positions near the houses as the inhabitants were preparing to be evacuated to Finland. We saw them pack their bags among other things such heavy proviant as fresh bread. We asked them if they did not believe Finns would feed them? They explained that the previous day they had been given their rations for a fortnight, so Finns would not give them anything for the next two weeks, of course. They did not understand that our rationing system was different from the one they were used to.
The inhabitants of one house included three women: two older sisters, 40 to 45 years in age and one 17 to 20 yr daughter. The head of the family had disappeared some years ago, victim to the system. The family had a right to keep one cow and some hens. But the cow had calved but the husband did not hand over the calf for common good but began to raise it to get a better price for it later. The money was earmarked to get material to fix the leaking roof of his house. But the Soviet authorities learned of his illegal scheme and he was called to be interrogated. He never returned and his family never learned anything of his fate. Yet the family did not have to worry about surviving because the sisters could keep their jobs in the kitchen of the military camp at Aleksandrovka. They were also allowed to keep their cow, which had been scared by the shooting as Finns attacked the village and escaped . The owner, however, found her and returned her in the cow shed and gave us, the new masters, orders to take proper care of her. She was not producing much now and she would end it soon. But the cow was to calf a few months later and then she would be a good milk producer.
There were other small houses near our AT gun nest on the side of the paved road from the dam to Valkeasaari the village. As the inhabitants were being evacuated one elderly man came to us with a message. He told that they had butchered a cow some days ago, without informing the Soviet authorities, and salted and hid the beef in a hole in the ground. They had now packed in their bags as much as they could carry but some beef was left behind. The man described in detail the hiding place and advised us to fetch the beef so that it would not be wasted. One of my men went at once to investigate and returned with a chunk weighing several kg. WE found salt and pepper in our cantonment and soon we had a big beef soup boiling. While waiting for our soup the time of evening milking came. I wanted to surprise my men and sneaked in the cow shed to milk the cow. That was however something that I had never done before, so the result was not as expected. The milk was squirted in every other place but the milking pail. Fortunately there was in our unit one man who knew how to milk. That night we dined beef soup with bread and milk.
Action in Aleksandrovka in early September 1941
The situation in Aleksandrovka was confused for a couple of days . Finns attacking at the village from the West and South did not know about their mutual positions every moment. At the same time the enemy counter-attacked against our positions at Aleksandrovka and Valkeasaari. The terrain was covered with thick bush , so the adversaries at times were mixed up with each other. At one time two heavy enemy KV tanks joined the battle, and Finnish AT guns opened up at them. One KV was knocked out pretty soon . A lucky hit dislodged the hull MG armoured mounting (calotte") and a few shells were shot in the tank through the breach. The other one got stuck in morass and was disabled. Its crew resisted fanatically for a long time but they had to surrender finally.
During the battle one AT gun of 14.Coy/JR6 ran out of shells, the ammunition man went to get some from the transport column. As he was returning to his position, carrying shells with both hands with his rifle slung in his back he met a squad of enemies on the path. The ammunition man was badly frightened, believing that his final hour was at hand. To his surprise the enemy was not bent on harming him. They were carrying their arms in an unusual manner: the rifle muzzles were pointing down. The Finn understood that the enemies wanted to surrender, but he had no time to accept their surrender while his companions were waiting for the shells. He put one shell box down and having a free arm he waved in the direction he had come from. The enemies proceeded to the direction indicated and the Finn with his ammo load to the other.
Abandoning Munakukkula hill was the turning point of the battle of Aleksandrovka. As soon as Finns had retreated from the hill the enemy placed a great number of direct firing cannons on the hill and its vicinity, starting systematically to smash the Finnish positions dug in Aleksandrovka. It seems the first object was the church in Aleksandrovka. Our men tried to make use of the thick stone walls for protection. But the shells hitting the walls sprayed so much splinters that we were ordered not to use the church for anything. Also the small houses were subjected to intense shelling, including the one we had chosen for us. Some men of our Company were wounded when they were snooping in the houses. Also the Commander of 5Coy/JR6, Capt. Hurme was killed as he was reconnoitring the terrain with his orderly. It seemed to us that having won the battle for Munakukkula hill the enemy improved their fighting in every manner in this front section.
The fighting turned into trench war which took over the entire Aleksandrovka village until June 1944. The bush lined fields turned into morass, the church that had been used as stables was totally abandoned and decaying. Only the underground structures of brick buildings were used, the small log houses were dismantled to be used for dugouts or firewood, etc. So began the almost three year long agonizing and wearing phase of the Continuation war - the trench war phase.
We crossed the national border
Erkki Holkeri
Journal "Kansa taisteli" vol 9, 1972
The troops of 18D. reached Rajajoki river at the Joutselkä-Mainila road in the afternoon of 31 Aug 1941 - which means the old national border. The very first tentative attempts to reconnoitre proved that the enemy had strongly occupied and fortified the riversides on Muolaa side at least near the main road. That is why the offensive was stopped for a couple of days to enable intensive reconnoitring to find out the weakest point in the enemy defences. The troops that had attacked East of Joutselkä a little later continued their advance passing Mainila from the East, reaching the Mainila-Valkeasaari road on 2 Sept 1941 at Uusi Alakylä. Enemy defending Mainila was now under a threat of being surrounded, because the only direction they could retreat to was the swampy area between Rajajoki river and the main road to Valkeasaari to the direction of Aleksandrovka. Yet the enemy troops held their positions, including those at Rajajoki, until afternoon of 2nd Sept. Then they began to retreat, having blown up the bridge of Rajajoki river.
Our attempts to approach Rajajoki in the direction of the main road were in vain and resulting in casualties. There was an enemy bunker near the bridge with an excellent view and field of fire to control and harass all action on our side. But in the afternoon 2 Sept , after we had heard sounds of heavy fighting in the direction of Mainila-Valkeasaari road , the enemy began to blow up works in their stronghold near the bridge. They also ended the efficient harassment fire over Rajajoki river. It was then as a Finnish patrol - including the author of this account - was sent to check the situation on the other side of the river. The patrol could wade the river unhindered. The above mentioned bunker was unoccupied. But a lot of material had been left behind. There were weapons, ammo, even brand new underwear. Our patrol washed themselves up in Rajajoki and put on a fresh set of underwear.
Not until night of 2 Sept we received orders to leave our positions on the W side of Rajajoki and join our own units that were marching East of Mainila over a pontoon bridge across Rajajoki. These second and third wave troops did not have any hurry because the enemy resisted hard in the direction of Uusi Alakylä - Valkeasaari road. Our troops advanced only very slowly. When it was decided to avoid the high ground and direct the offensive through the large swampy areas at Öljymäki hill and Uusi Alakylä, all heavy weapons and transports had to stay overnight in the area Mainila-Öljymäki. During the night the Sapper patrols found and marked some kind of a road through the morass. to Aleksandrovka. Then the troops could proceed, including the horse drawn AT gun Company 14.Coy/JR6 - the unit of the author.
It seems that the enemy did not consider it likely that Finns would cross Rajajoki river. This is implied by the fact that many enemy units appeared to have abandoned their positions in disorder. They also often had disengaged too late. This had been the fate of an horse drawn battery - or artillery battalion - that had been surprised by our troops. The enemy had been subjected to intense firing so sudden and effective that the horse teams had not been able to scatter, but they had fallen left and right in perfect order. The drivers, too, had shared the fate of their horses, with their rifles in their backs. Also in Aleksandrovka the Red Army had left in a tremendous hurry. The local civilian population was almost totally left behind, unevacuated. (Maybe that was planned, who knows.) Hurry, disorder and civilians left behind may have been the reason why the enemy artillery fire that punished us in the direction of Mainila - Aleksandrovka road, was less intense and efficient in Aleksandrovka, initially.
14.K arrived at the barracks of Aleksandrovka and immediately the author and his AT gun team were ordered to take positions among two dilapidated small houses a little E of the church. Hauling the AT gun on a paved road that was well under enemy observation seemed rash to us. The enemy held a high point one kilometer off, and there was a mighty bunker on its slope with its embrasure pointing right to Aleksandrovka. But there was no choice: except the roads the local terrain was swampy morass with a huge number of water filled ditches. We used the paved road even though we felt we were asking the enemy to be shot at. Yet it seems the enemy had not yet organized their defence because we reached our target without any incidents.
The said hill was soon named Munakukkula (Egg hill) and the bunker on its side Ristibunkkeri (Cross bunker). The terrain of Munakukkula was finally left to the enemy after initial skirmishing, and that caused us a huge number of casualties during the trench war phase. This is deplorable since it is known that one Finnish unit of KevOs7 had managed to make their way to Munakukkula hill and even beyond. but due to some bungling had to retreat.
Contacts with Soviet citizens
We were digging our positions near the houses as the inhabitants were preparing to be evacuated to Finland. We saw them pack their bags among other things such heavy proviant as fresh bread. We asked them if they did not believe Finns would feed them? They explained that the previous day they had been given their rations for a fortnight, so Finns would not give them anything for the next two weeks, of course. They did not understand that our rationing system was different from the one they were used to.
The inhabitants of one house included three women: two older sisters, 40 to 45 years in age and one 17 to 20 yr daughter. The head of the family had disappeared some years ago, victim to the system. The family had a right to keep one cow and some hens. But the cow had calved but the husband did not hand over the calf for common good but began to raise it to get a better price for it later. The money was earmarked to get material to fix the leaking roof of his house. But the Soviet authorities learned of his illegal scheme and he was called to be interrogated. He never returned and his family never learned anything of his fate. Yet the family did not have to worry about surviving because the sisters could keep their jobs in the kitchen of the military camp at Aleksandrovka. They were also allowed to keep their cow, which had been scared by the shooting as Finns attacked the village and escaped . The owner, however, found her and returned her in the cow shed and gave us, the new masters, orders to take proper care of her. She was not producing much now and she would end it soon. But the cow was to calf a few months later and then she would be a good milk producer.
There were other small houses near our AT gun nest on the side of the paved road from the dam to Valkeasaari the village. As the inhabitants were being evacuated one elderly man came to us with a message. He told that they had butchered a cow some days ago, without informing the Soviet authorities, and salted and hid the beef in a hole in the ground. They had now packed in their bags as much as they could carry but some beef was left behind. The man described in detail the hiding place and advised us to fetch the beef so that it would not be wasted. One of my men went at once to investigate and returned with a chunk weighing several kg. WE found salt and pepper in our cantonment and soon we had a big beef soup boiling. While waiting for our soup the time of evening milking came. I wanted to surprise my men and sneaked in the cow shed to milk the cow. That was however something that I had never done before, so the result was not as expected. The milk was squirted in every other place but the milking pail. Fortunately there was in our unit one man who knew how to milk. That night we dined beef soup with bread and milk.
Action in Aleksandrovka in early September 1941
The situation in Aleksandrovka was confused for a couple of days . Finns attacking at the village from the West and South did not know about their mutual positions every moment. At the same time the enemy counter-attacked against our positions at Aleksandrovka and Valkeasaari. The terrain was covered with thick bush , so the adversaries at times were mixed up with each other. At one time two heavy enemy KV tanks joined the battle, and Finnish AT guns opened up at them. One KV was knocked out pretty soon . A lucky hit dislodged the hull MG armoured mounting (calotte") and a few shells were shot in the tank through the breach. The other one got stuck in morass and was disabled. Its crew resisted fanatically for a long time but they had to surrender finally.
During the battle one AT gun of 14.Coy/JR6 ran out of shells, the ammunition man went to get some from the transport column. As he was returning to his position, carrying shells with both hands with his rifle slung in his back he met a squad of enemies on the path. The ammunition man was badly frightened, believing that his final hour was at hand. To his surprise the enemy was not bent on harming him. They were carrying their arms in an unusual manner: the rifle muzzles were pointing down. The Finn understood that the enemies wanted to surrender, but he had no time to accept their surrender while his companions were waiting for the shells. He put one shell box down and having a free arm he waved in the direction he had come from. The enemies proceeded to the direction indicated and the Finn with his ammo load to the other.
Abandoning Munakukkula hill was the turning point of the battle of Aleksandrovka. As soon as Finns had retreated from the hill the enemy placed a great number of direct firing cannons on the hill and its vicinity, starting systematically to smash the Finnish positions dug in Aleksandrovka. It seems the first object was the church in Aleksandrovka. Our men tried to make use of the thick stone walls for protection. But the shells hitting the walls sprayed so much splinters that we were ordered not to use the church for anything. Also the small houses were subjected to intense shelling, including the one we had chosen for us. Some men of our Company were wounded when they were snooping in the houses. Also the Commander of 5Coy/JR6, Capt. Hurme was killed as he was reconnoitring the terrain with his orderly. It seemed to us that having won the battle for Munakukkula hill the enemy improved their fighting in every manner in this front section.
The fighting turned into trench war which took over the entire Aleksandrovka village until June 1944. The bush lined fields turned into morass, the church that had been used as stables was totally abandoned and decaying. Only the underground structures of brick buildings were used, the small log houses were dismantled to be used for dugouts or firewood, etc. So began the almost three year long agonizing and wearing phase of the Continuation war - the trench war phase.
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Juha Tompuri
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 11563
- Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
- Location: Mylsä
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Thanks Lotvonen,
Regards, Juha
Lotvonen wrote:The situation in Aleksandrovka was confused for a couple of days . Finns attacking at the village from the West and South did not know about their mutual positions every moment. At the same time the enemy counter-attacked against our positions at Aleksandrovka and Valkeasaari. The terrain was covered with thick bush , so the adversaries at times were mixed up with each other. At one time two heavy enemy KV tanks joined the battle, and Finnish AT guns opened up at them. One KV was knocked out pretty soon . A lucky hit dislodged the hull MG armoured mounting (calotte") and a few shells were shot in the tank through the breach. The other one got stuck in morass and was disabled. Its crew resisted fanatically for a long time but they had to surrender finally.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 05#p7601821941 in several cases the Finnish 37mm Bofors AT-guns were able to knock off Soviet KV-1's by penetrating the armour at(around) the bow mg mount.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1731161Juha Tompuri wrote:Thanks for the info and uplift, Jarkko.JTV wrote:Small correction after all these years:
Soviet KV-1E vs. captured 45-mm antitank-gun in Finnish use, place Valkeasaari year 1941. Mentioned with two photos in Pekka Kantakoski's Punaiset Panssarit page 413 - 414.
My source (now that I finally remember it) was different but perhaps of a same tank.
Although the "story" is a bit different.
Tietoja puna-armeijan panssarikalustosta ja sen käytösta varsinkin Suomen rintamalla sodissa vv. 1939-1940 ja 1941-1942. Päämaja Tiedusteluosasto 1942. (Finnish Defence Forces intelligence sector publication about Red-Army Tanks and usage of tanks specially at Finnish front at wars 1939-40 and 1941-42)
That booklet mentions that the tank(mentioned there as a KV-1A) was first (succesfully) hit (37mm AT-gun) to the drivers hatch, which fell off (seen at the hull front at the photo) and damaged electric wiring leading to the turret. After that another AT-projectile hit to the seam of hull mg-mount and hull, disintegrating the mount. Three more shots were then fired in from the opening.
Here two photos from that case:
Regards, Juha
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Juha Tompuri
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 11563
- Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
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Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Same tank as above:
Mined by Finnish engineers, and later exploded to unrepairable condition
SA-photos 51403-51406
Regards, Juha
Mined by Finnish engineers, and later exploded to unrepairable condition
SA-photos 51403-51406
Regards, Juha
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Juha Tompuri
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 11563
- Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
- Location: Mylsä
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
The other:Lotvonen wrote: At one time two heavy enemy KV tanks joined the battle, and Finnish AT guns opened up at them...
... The other one got stuck in morass and was disabled. Its crew resisted fanatically for a long time but they had to surrender finally.
SA-photo 100418
SA-photo 100428
SA-photo 57810
SA-photo 90399Regards, Juha
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Could you please indicate details of front line changings. (JR 47/JR 46) I would like to correlate attached record of 12.D war diaries with JR positions.Vaeltaja wrote:Assuming i guess what you mean then the war diaries of JR46 and JR47 as well as that of 12.D are what you are after. Soviet attack on 20 September coincided with the Finnish change of front line regiment so the information is spread out in both JR46 and JR47 war diaries.
Re: Finns & Beloostrovs in 1941
Well, the details are in the diaries. It started in 19.9.1941 and seems to have played part as to why the Soviet attack on 20.9.1941 was as successfully as it was. As to the rest I'm not quite sure what you are after.